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Post by alexwhite on Apr 17, 2016 12:51:08 GMT
Would it be possible to create Eusocial colonies(Ants, Termites, Bees etc.)? Note: I am focusing on ants in this as I know the most about them. Variations would be needed to be optional for the other insect types. Overview The way I imagine it, There would be different castes, as mentioned in another thread. The male and queen casts that mate and workers that are sterile and raise larva. The player can edit these castes, specifying what their roles will be, via sexual organs and behaviour. The player could then, again using behaviour, specify the ratio at which The castes would be produced. Then, when evolving the species, they can choose what role they would play. Reproduction A male and a virgin queen would be needed to reproduce and start a colony. Is possible, they would only be produced in the summer and would have wings that they could shed. The player, if playing as the male would die and would have the option to play as the Queen. The Queen would then find a suitable nest, digging if possible, in a cave or on the surface and begin the colony. Bonus If possible, different specialisations could occur e.g. Leafcutter, honeypot, army ants etc. Please discuss/add to this
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Post by Atrox on Apr 17, 2016 13:30:57 GMT
Well I know that castes are planned however I'm pretty confident they'll make it into the game eventually. When they do you'll be able to change your species accordingly. One thing I'm really curious about is how much variation there can be between castes.
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The_Wayward_Admiral
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Atrox drew this awesome image of the Keldori!
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Post by The_Wayward_Admiral on Apr 17, 2016 13:33:04 GMT
In reference to castes, that's definitely been discussed as you mentioned, and I've always imagined it working similarly to an ant colony. Mating behavior could probably be handled in the behavior editor, just stating "if (male && virgin queen){ mate}" (disclaimer, I have no idea how the behavior editor will work). When it comes to digging, there was discussion about that, that I didn't fully understand. I'll edit this post in a minute with a link to the discussion. Something about voxels. Edit: thrivegame.freeforums.net/thread/10/safe-zones-underground
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Post by alexwhite on Apr 17, 2016 13:34:03 GMT
I'm thinking their size and roles. Larger will be better at fighting due to strength. Smaller will do other tasks like getting for and caring for young. Stuff like that
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Post by alexwhite on Apr 17, 2016 13:35:20 GMT
In reference to castes, that's definitely been discussed as you mentioned, and I've always imagined it working similarly to an ant colony. Mating behavior could probably be handled in the behavior editor, just stating "if (male && virgin queen){ mate}" (disclaimer, I have no idea how the behavior editor will work). When it comes to digging, there was discussion about that, that I didn't fully understand. I'll edit this post in a minute with a link to the discussion. Something about voxels. Thank you very much. I think it could be possible and I would very much like to read the digging thread
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Post by Atrox on Apr 17, 2016 13:39:17 GMT
When it comes to digging, there was discussion about that, that I didn't fully understand. I'll edit this post in a minute with a link to the discussion. Something about voxels. I think what they were talking about is basically subdividing the ground into small voxels so that the game can actually render tunnels and burrows and such. Kind of like Minecraft.
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The_Wayward_Admiral
Spacefaring
The_Real_Slim_Shady
Atrox drew this awesome image of the Keldori!
Posts: 1,011
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Post by The_Wayward_Admiral on Apr 17, 2016 13:42:06 GMT
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Post by alexwhite on Apr 17, 2016 14:21:54 GMT
That could work
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Post by alexwhite on Apr 17, 2016 15:33:29 GMT
I can't wait for this
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Post by Oliveriver on Apr 17, 2016 17:03:18 GMT
alexwhitePlease try not to double post in future. Unless there's a significant time delay between the two posts (a few days at least), we'd prefer you to edit your previous post with the new information.
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Post by alexwhite on Apr 17, 2016 17:23:55 GMT
Sure. No problem Being as you are a Dev, what do you think?
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Post by Oliveriver on Apr 17, 2016 18:12:02 GMT
I think castes have been in the works for a while, but little thought has really gone into creating colonies. Your ideas sound good, but as with all things it's difficult to know whether a) something like that could be created in the first place given the other mechanics in play and b) it would be fun.
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Post by alexwhite on Apr 17, 2016 19:12:53 GMT
This is true
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Post by tammio on Apr 18, 2016 18:51:41 GMT
I mean the funny thing about insect colonies is that they have hive minds, isn't it? So idealy playing as that kind of creature would be completely different from playing an individualistic creature. Also hive-midistic reatures are extremely adaptable to changing circumstances and very creative and exeedingly successfull at solving problems, even though every single individual member doesn't even posess a "brain" in the way mamals do. Basicly Ant's brains are just about non existent, but nonetheless millions of individuals can cooperate in a way no human society or animal pack can ever match. Even different colonies have been seen cooperating like a single organism (wich is like a complete merger of two seperate states into a single state, with no traces of individuality left to each state. That has NEVER happened with us humans). Thats just...wow. Sometimes I wonder why we aren't ruled over by ants. Or are We?
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Post by Atrox on Apr 18, 2016 19:59:18 GMT
I mean the funny thing about insect colonies is that they have hive minds, isn't it? So idealy playing as that kind of creature would be completely different from playing an individualistic creature. Also hive-midistic reatures are extremely adaptable to changing circumstances and very creative and exeedingly successfull at solving problems, even though every single individual member doesn't even posess a "brain" in the way mamals do. Basicly Ant's brains are just about non existent, but nonetheless millions of individuals can cooperate in a way no human society or animal pack can ever match. Even different colonies have been seen cooperating like a single organism (wich is like a complete merger of two seperate states into a single state, with no traces of individuality left to each state. That has NEVER happened with us humans). Thats just...wow. Sometimes I wonder why we aren't ruled over by ants. Or are We? Actually ants do have brains, and they aren't actually linked together. The way they are able to coordinate themselves so well is because of complex chemical signals.
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Post by lowry on Apr 18, 2016 20:39:32 GMT
It's weirdly similar to how plants interact
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Post by alexwhite on Apr 19, 2016 10:15:12 GMT
I mean the funny thing about insect colonies is that they have hive minds, isn't it? So idealy playing as that kind of creature would be completely different from playing an individualistic creature. Also hive-midistic reatures are extremely adaptable to changing circumstances and very creative and exeedingly successfull at solving problems, even though every single individual member doesn't even posess a "brain" in the way mamals do. Basicly Ant's brains are just about non existent, but nonetheless millions of individuals can cooperate in a way no human society or animal pack can ever match. Even different colonies have been seen cooperating like a single organism (wich is like a complete merger of two seperate states into a single state, with no traces of individuality left to each state. That has NEVER happened with us humans). Thats just...wow. Sometimes I wonder why we aren't ruled over by ants. Or are We? Actually ants do have brains, and they aren't actually linked together. The way they are able to coordinate themselves so well is because of complex chemical signals. Ants have brains and, although they are small, achieve great things. The communicate using: Chemicals, vibrations, touch and even visual 'sign language' in some cases. The 'hive mind' just came about as science couldn't yet explain how they could work together so well, so they though some sort of telepathy was involved. Ants are kind of my thing.
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Post by tjwhale on Apr 19, 2016 16:46:41 GMT
1. I really don't think castes is too hard. We are already going to have to allow people to design a different male and female for their species (as we really can't not do that) and so why not let people design 5+ different castes? So I think an ant colony is possible. Moreover we'll need flocking behaviour too (for birds and fish etc) and so even if they only had a version of that the nests would look pretty good.
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"Basicly Ant's brains are just about non existent, but nonetheless millions of individuals can cooperate in a way no human society or animal pack can ever match. Even different colonies have been seen cooperating like a single organism (wich is like a complete merger of two seperate states into a single state, with no traces of individuality left to each state. That has NEVER happened with us humans)."
I'm not so sure about that. Humans and Dogs are two species that are basically merged together. Each can live independently but often live in a deep symbiosis. Humans are symbiotic with loads of creatures (cows, horses, sheep etc). Moreover an army is a good example of humans exhibiting eusociality and ant like behaviour (willingness to sacrifice the self to protect the hive, unified actions, specialisations). So I'm not sure we're so different after all.
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Post by tammio on Apr 19, 2016 17:19:14 GMT
Ah jes Ants do have brains. But their Brains are while highly efficent for their size are still extremely tiny, even too small for what we call "inteligence" on an individual level. But as a colony or group they are capable of compleating quite complicated cognitive tasks. But only as a group. Its quite similyr too croud computing actualy. www.insidescience.org/content/when-ants-get-together-make-decision/834And when talking about a hive mind I dindn't meen a "telepathic" or somhow mystical conection, but exactly what you were saying alexwite. In the end it's less how ants do it, but they do behave like a single organism contrived by many individual cells. The hive mind isn't a mind in the conventional sence like ours, but the way I understand it it works more like a computer with a number of routines that are executed one after another. So when forager ants don't return, this changes the chemistry of the pheromones in the colony. Then a number of Warriors are dispached to find out what happend to the foragers. This again changes the Pheromones in the colony wich makes the other Warrior ants prepare to defend it. When the dispached warriors find other ants, who killed the foragers, or any other enemy they will judge the situation again by smell and reakt accordingly, by fighting or retreating or even by trying to storm and subdue the other colony. But nonetheless you will not have some warriors who prefer to fight rather than flee or whatnot. They will react as one, as if guided by... a hive mind And symbiosis of man and farm animal is not the sae as two ant Colonies working together. The colsest thing we have to that is the EU where a nuber of states give up their sovereighity in favor of cooperation. The relationship between Humans and farm animals is at best like the relation of ants and plant lice.
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Post by alexwhite on Apr 19, 2016 17:39:51 GMT
Fair enough. I must have misunderstood. As for what the devs are saying: I am very exited. This would be really cool as eusocial insects are so numerous and influential I feel it would almost be unfair not to include them. Ants are also symbiotic with aphids and fungi etc. Would symbiosis be possible in this way? Two species that evolve to survive with each other? I feel this would be an important feature and a very interesting one as so many organisms co exist on earth, it would be good to see them as an option. From parasites to symbiotic relationships, they would add a fascinating option to the player and NPC species. About intelligence, it is constantly being re defined, a specific example would be slime mould. No 'brain' yet it can solve mazes and even discard the less efficient options. It is a fascinating subject and discussion. Thank you for taking the time to read this, everybody
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