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Post by Atrox on Mar 15, 2016 19:49:59 GMT
At The Uteen 's behest I have created a new thread to continue discussion on how to play alongside NPC Civilizations while remaining in the Aware stage. So the main issue we're facing is the fact that a society advances technologically much faster than an organism advances biologically. Realistically, many civilizations will rise and fall in the time that an organism will undergo any significant evolutionary change. If you're playing in the Aware stage and a settlement of sorts exists at the same time, chances are that one trip to the Organism Editor ( millions, if not billions, of in-game years) will provide enough time for any existing civilization to: - Get wiped out.
- Go from stone age to space age.
- Belgium up the planet.
Apart from the inconsistent time jumps, this also has the potential to cause some problems for the player. They might enter the Organism Editor to further adapt to their rain forest environment and come back to find that the rain forests have been cut down entirely. Congratulations, you're extinct. So how do we avoid this problem? Easy. Make the rate of Civilized AI progression dependent on the player's progression. The way I see it, every trip to the editor jumps you forward a good million years or more. However if you just don't enter the editor, time will have no reason to skip forwards. You can play as the same organism for a looong time and nothing will change ( except after a while, civilizations could advance on a normal time scale. If you wait long enough, maybe they'll wipe themselves out, allowing you to evolve normally with no risk again). But what if the player wants to evolve anyway but still wants the civilization to stick around? Answer: They can be domesticated and subjected to artificial selection. The way it'd work is every once in a while, the Civ AI will attempt to interact with the player organism in a "friendly" ( i.e. not killing them outright. Capturing and feeding are options) manner. The player can choose to resist and remain wild and free of course, but if the player allows the Civ AI to interact with them, they can begin the process of domestication. When undergoing domestication the player is able to enter the organism editor and modify their organism without screwing up the time scale. There is a catch though: You will not have as many MP to work with. Why? You are being domesticated. You are subject to the will of your captors. There will be certain parameters for what animals will be needed for their civilization such as livestock, pets, mounts, etc. The Civ AI ( or the player) will decide what they will do with the unused MP to fit their parameters. This would allow the player to join their Civ AI overlords on other planets if they ever manage to achieve space travel. The way it'd work is you'd enter the OE like normal with the standard 100 MP, but a portion of MP is locked into certain mutations fitting the parameters required to be domesticated (a change in overall size, strength of muscles, etc.). The player can use the remaining MP for whatever they'd like. For example if my creature was basically an alien sheep of some sort, and I wanted to become the local Civ AI's pet I would allow my sheep to get captured. Once I'm in the OE there might be a little notification bar along the top with scrolling text notifying me that due to my species undergoing domestication, half of my MP will be allocated to [enter parameters here]. To be a pet let's say the parameters are to be a smaller size and weaker strength, while also getting way fluffier. I spend half of my MP on one of these (or all of these) parameters and use my remaining MP to change the color of my wool or something. Generations of this later, my species has become this small, colorful ball of fluff. Completely domesticated. If the player doesn't want to be domesticated and still wants to evolve normally, they can do so as well. This provides the player with plenty of interesting scenarios such as exploring ruins, interacting with possible surviving AI, or attempting to survive the harsh environment they have suddenly found themselves in as most civilizations will be gone in the next generation.
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Post by Atrox on Mar 15, 2016 20:22:38 GMT
This solves the problem of how to keep a civilisation around, when time-scales are different depending on the stage, very well. But the original problem you presented seems be the possibility of destructive civilisations rising in the million year time-jump after using the organism editor. I like the idea of domestication being allowed, but I'm a bit confused about how it solves this problem. Or are you suggesting domestication as a way to survive, if something like this did happen to the player? That would be a decent solution, with civilisations being a nearly unstoppable force, which mess with your gene pool but provide a guarantee of survival. Sorry for not being clear. That was only part of the problem that I was trying to address. The full problem is the fact that the time-scales are skewed on different stages of advancement and there needs a way to be able to play alongside more advanced species or not at all. You had said that it would be fun to play as a species during the rise of a civilization correct? I see two ways that this can be accomplished. Domestication or staying wild. Domestication is the first option. The player can begin being domesticated by allowing the CivAI to interact with it peaceably. The way it solves the problem mentioned above is that you will be evolving at a faster rate, directly alongside the civilization itself. Every generation would bring you closer to the CivAI's desired domesticated creature without the massive time jumps. Staying wild is the second option. Staying Wild is selected every time the player successfully flees from or attacks members of the CivAI. In order to stay wild and not time-jump to the future, the player must not evolve. Even if the player dies and is reborn, the civilization will still be there as long as they haven't changed their species. Staying wild allows the player to do the things you mentioned: There'd be environmental changes, forests being chopped down for wood. You'd be hunting farm animals, exploring cities, evading capture. One day you could even stow away/get put on a spaceship and end up on a completely different planet (and maybe thrive there if it's terraformed). There is a third option but the third option does not allow for the player to exist alongside the civilization. The third option is evolving normally. This would cause a time-jump, meaning that the civilization would most likely be gone by the time the player's species gets to that point. As stated here... Yes, being a civilisation should be achievable, but I see no reason to require being a civilisation for them to exist at all. There'd be a larger risk of your habitat being destroyed, so it could be reserved for higher difficulties, maybe implemented later on, but otherwise it would be awesome to experience civilisations from a creature's perspective. ...there would be a large risk of your habitat being destroyed which would force you to adapt quickly. However, if by chance your habitat is intact when you return to the game, you are able to explore any ruins that could have remained ( I would imagine that this is also a rare scenario. Millions of years is ample time for ruins to deteriorate I think. Even if the ruins are gone I'm sure those sites would still have plenty of archaeological data for when you reach the Society stage). After the civilization is gone the game will progress as normal until the player or another species starts another civilization.
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Post by StealthStyleL on Mar 15, 2016 21:45:17 GMT
What if, as an organism, you decided to go and visit said civ. How could the game possibly generate a town, for example, for your organism to explore without killing the computer? As far as I know, this is difficult. The alternatives I can see are that the town would be very basically developed or you would be barred by an invisible wall. Both of these would detract from realism. What does everyone else think?
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Post by Atrox on Mar 15, 2016 21:57:01 GMT
What if, as an organism, you decided to go and visit said civ. How could the game possibly generate a town, for example, for your organism to explore without killing the computer? As far as I know, this is difficult. The alternatives I can see are that the town would be very basically developed or you would be barred by an invisible wall. Both of these would detract from realism. What does everyone else think? Possible solution: only load the civ while you're within the borders while unloading the rest of the world. Most of the processing power would go into creating detailed cities while the rest of the world is rendered in the most basic sense.
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The Uteen
Sentient
my status: very quo
Posts: 83
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Post by The Uteen on Mar 15, 2016 22:24:54 GMT
Good concept. Having the choice between domestication and evading is good. Nice job mentioning that the civ will be able to control your evolution, that's an important aspect of domestication. Here's some things to consider: - Domestication would mean your organism's evolution would be over much shorter time scales. Not only are your ‘MP’ limited due to the civ's artificial selection, but it would presumably be divided given the shorter timescales.
This leads be to wonder whether evolution over shorter timescales should be supported by the OE anyway. Thinking about this problem leads me to think MP spent in an edit (1 session in the editor) should be proportional to the time skipped when leaving the editor. Could the shorter time skips be a consequence of limited MP? - How does this interact with auto-evo?
Your description of this idea revolves around manual edits, yet an auto-evo option is a feature widely discussed as an eventual goal. Auto-evo would have to be restricted in a similar way, although I'm not sure of the specifics of how this would work. I imagine the civ's artificial selection would have to revolve around the organism editor (from an auto-evo Civ Stage player's perspective), since this is not a natural form of evolution. Incidentally, when do the time skips occur when using auto-evo? I think the idea of auto-evo could use some finalisation, if this hasn't been accounted for already, but that's a topic for another thread. - What do you do as a domesticated organism?
You've covered the specifics of how evolution works with domestication, but haven't mentioned what it would actually like to play, which is perhaps the most important factor in deciding whether this is a good feature for Thrive-the-game. For primitive civilisations, gameplay would be fairly similar, since they wouldn't provide as much protection, shelter, or food. But what about modern day civilisations? Actual gameplay could potentially end up way too easy if the civilisation has decent farming technology. Need water? You have it. Need food? You have it. Want to explore? Depending on how confined your field/pen/cage/house is, you can't. Some gameplay possiblities to consider (good and bad, and could be combined): - Gameplay while domesticated could be inherently fun, no changes needed.
- Disallow playing as a domesticated species if the civilisation is past a certain level of advancement.
- Allow the species as a whole to become domesticated, enabling its guaranteed survival, but the player is free to find a way to escape, as an individual.
- Minigame-style gameplay extentions while domesticated (yuck).
- Increased risk from other factors. (Disease, maybe? I'd have to check that.)
- Something I've not thought of.
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Post by Narotiza on Mar 15, 2016 23:14:15 GMT
About the issue of the environment potentially changing dramatically after one trip to the editor;
Perhaps the editor could show you a preview of the environment your new species will live in? If there's a civilization on the planet, you'd be able to see if something catastrophic will happen and know how to adapt accordingly. It would also help show the player how much time will pass in an evolution.
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Post by Atrox on Mar 15, 2016 23:14:20 GMT
Oooh yes plenty to think about - Domestication would mean your organism's evolution would be over much shorter time scales. Not only are your ‘MP’ limited due to the civ's artificial selection, but it would presumably be divided given the shorter timescales.
This leads be to wonder whether evolution over shorter timescales should be supported by the OE anyway. Thinking about this problem leads me to think MP spent in an edit (1 session in the editor) should be proportional to the time skipped when leaving the editor. Could the shorter time skips be a consequence of limited MP? I was also thinking this. My reasoning is that you'd have the same MP per shorter time-jump simply because it's not natural selection doing the work, it's artificial selection. The CivAI will be the dominant force over your progression as a species, selecting individuals with the best traits to survive and culling the unfit. However when it comes to regular natural selection I do agree less MP spent should equate to a smaller time-jump. - How does this interact with auto-evo?
Your description of this idea revolves around manual edits, yet an auto-evo option is a feature widely discussed as an eventual goal. Auto-evo would have to be restricted in a similar way, although I'm not sure of the specifics of how this would work. I imagine the civ's artificial selection would have to revolve around the organism editor (from an auto-evo Civ Stage player's perspective), since this is not a natural form of evolution. Incidentally, when do the time skips occur when using auto-evo? I think the idea of auto-evo could use some finalisation, if this hasn't been accounted for already, but that's a topic for another thread. Well the parameters would still exist, and without the player adding their own personal touches to the organism during the editor sessions, the CivAI would most likely decide which form of domestication the organism will take on it's own. Auto-evo would handle distribution of MP to the different parameters. I would imagine the time-jumps would occur at the same rate as they would if the player were in control. - What do you do as a domesticated organism?
You've covered the specifics of how evolution works with domestication, but haven't mentioned what it would actually like to play, which is perhaps the most important factor in deciding whether this is a good feature for Thrive-the-game. For primitive civilisations, gameplay would be fairly similar, since they wouldn't provide as much protection, shelter, or food. But what about modern day civilisations? Actual gameplay could potentially end up way too easy if the civilisation has decent farming technology. Need water? You have it. Need food? You have it. Want to explore? Depending on how confined your field/pen/cage/house is, you can't. Yeahh I'm not sure how to get past this one. As you said, as the civ advances, the game will only get easier for the domesticated creatures. Some gameplay possiblities to consider (good and bad, and could be combined): - Gameplay while domesticated could be inherently fun, no changes needed.
- Disallow playing as a domesticated species if the civilisation is past a certain level of advancement.
- Allow the species as a whole to become domesticated, enabling its guaranteed survival, but the player is free to find a way to escape, as an individual.
- Minigame-style gameplay extentions while domesticated (yuck).
- Increased risk from other factors. (Disease, maybe? I'd have to check that.)
- Something I've not thought of.
- Initially sure, but I'm not sure how it could be fun later in the stage.
- Is that a game over/win for the player?
- The domesticated version of the players species could potentially be so far out of its element that it wouldn't stand a chance in the wilderness.
- Agreed
- The civ would take care of it
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The Uteen
Sentient
my status: very quo
Posts: 83
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Post by The Uteen on Mar 16, 2016 16:28:03 GMT
- How does this interact with auto-evo?
Your description of this idea revolves around manual edits, yet an auto-evo option is a feature widely discussed as an eventual goal. Auto-evo would have to be restricted in a similar way, although I'm not sure of the specifics of how this would work. I imagine the civ's artificial selection would have to revolve around the organism editor (from an auto-evo Civ Stage player's perspective), since this is not a natural form of evolution. Incidentally, when do the time skips occur when using auto-evo? I think the idea of auto-evo could use some finalisation, if this hasn't been accounted for already, but that's a topic for another thread. Well the parameters would still exist, and without the player adding their own personal touches to the organism during the editor sessions, the CivAI would most likely decide which form of domestication the organism will take on it's own. Auto-evo would handle distribution of MP to the different parameters. I would imagine the time-jumps would occur at the same rate as they would if the player were in control. If, when breeding occurs, you get taken to the OE to make edits, a time skip makes a great deal of sense - otherwise, you wouldn't see the changes immediately, and there's a natural break in gameplay to allow it. But with auto-evo? Having breeding whisk the player into the future seems rather intrusive. I'd expect the default for auto-evo to be a kind of manual fast-forward, if at all possible, with the player's control moving to offspring upon breeding. But that aside, if auto-evo can be made to use the same parameters as the Organism Editor, then that would simplify things. It's something to bear in mind once we come to implement it. Some gameplay possiblities to consider (good and bad, and could be combined): - Gameplay while domesticated could be inherently fun, no changes needed.
- Disallow playing as a domesticated species if the civilisation is past a certain level of advancement.
- Allow the species as a whole to become domesticated, enabling its guaranteed survival, but the player is free to find a way to escape, as an individual.
- Minigame-style gameplay extentions while domesticated (yuck).
- Increased risk from other factors. (Disease, maybe? I'd have to check that.)
- Something I've not thought of.
- Initially sure, but I'm not sure how it could be fun later in the stage.
- Is that a game over/win for the player?
- The domesticated version of the players species could potentially be so far out of its element that it wouldn't stand a chance in the wilderness.
- Agreed
- The civ would take care of it
Disallowing playing as a domesticated species doesn't have to correspond to the game ending, and I'd rather avoid game-endings as a possibility (you can always take control of your closest relative, unless the planet blows up or something). I was thinking along the lines of preventing it in the first place, though how that would work is questionable: - Banning advanced civilisations from domesticating animals after a certain point? (A bit extreme)
- Maybe civilisations commit to wildlife preservation after a certain point, meaning the species cannot be domesticated as a whole?
- Maybe civilisations can't domesticate an entire species in the first place? (Thinking about it, this actually makes some sense, though favours the argument against adding domesticated gameplay)
So that might not be a great solution. ‘The domesticated version of the players species could potentially be so far out of its element that it wouldn't stand a chance in the wilderness.’ This could actually be seen as a positive point, presenting various options for gameplay. Take the easy route of staying in captivity? Escape, but try to stick around and steal food? Maybe escape and get captured by another farm or something? Or venture out into the wilderness to play the game with a handicap (hard mode). As for civilisations solving disease, my thinking was the general idea of risks induced by domestication itself. Animals held in large groups, densely packed, I would expect to be more prone to outbreaks of diseases. For later civilisations, with animals being shipped around the planet, this would be even more of an issue. I admit I'm having trouble thinking of other possibilities in this category. Increased dependance on the civilisation is a risk, since the civilisation could have problems of its own, which could trickle down to the player. Perhaps the mentality of other creatures of your species could change for the worse, through competition for the same food source (what farmers provide). For pets with territorial instincts, being stuck in a small city with others of the same species could be a nightmare. I'm not sure these are great ideas, but they're the best I can come up with. I like the idea of including domestication, but thinking about it in terms of gameplay, it's hard to find good justification. But then, even if it's interesting for about 5 minutes, that's still 5 minutes of interesting.
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Post by lowry on Mar 16, 2016 20:50:01 GMT
Not meaning to sound rude or hostile in anyway but; why do we need domestication as something that happens during an aware playthrough, that gameplay would really feasibly lower your chances of sapience at a later date. Plus your creature is more likely to die than survive if your specimens domesticators die out as your so reliant on them, not just for food it protection. Don't get me wrong I think domestication would be great for aware or even fiddling in the ascended game. Personally, playing as an organism that either eats grass until fat enough to kill, has to take strict orders from master or needs to be milked every day seems ridiculously tedious as you no longer need to trysurvive or even try to thrive, your friendly salient overlords do all the work for you. Just my two cents on the subject.
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Post by Atrox on Mar 16, 2016 20:57:27 GMT
Not meaning to sound rude or hostile in anyway but; why do we need domestication as something that happens during an aware playthrough, that gameplay would really feasibly lower your chances of sapience at a later date. Plus your creature is more likely to die than survive if your specimens domesticators die out as your so reliant on them, not just for food it protection. Don't get me wrong I think domestication would be great for aware or even fiddling in the ascended game. Personally, playing as an organism that either eats grass until fat enough to kill, has to take strict orders from master or needs to be milked every day seems ridiculously tedious as you no longer need to trysurvive or even try to thrive, your friendly salient overlords do all the work for you. Just my two cents on the subject. Well we don't need domestication. It's just another way that the player organism will be able to interact with any civilization that may rise before their own. The chances of a civilization popping up would be slim, and even moreso by the fact that they would only pop up on the highest difficulty. At least that's how I imagine it.
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The Uteen
Sentient
my status: very quo
Posts: 83
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Post by The Uteen on Mar 17, 2016 23:57:05 GMT
Not meaning to sound rude or hostile in anyway Not at all. Debate leads to progress. but; why do we need domestication as something that happens during an aware playthrough, That's the question. Mainly, I think it provides a potential way to expand the basic gameplay of, and add variety for, non-sapient organisms. I think a major flaw of Spore was the way stages were linear, almost like separate games. That was in large part due to all interaction being with species of the same level of advancement. Want to meet a tribe in creature stage? No chance. Want to wander over to a neighbouring city in civilisation stage? I'm afraid you can't control individuals from now on. Inter-stage interaction offers a way to make the game feel like more of a unified whole, and domestication would be a major enabler of this interaction. that gameplay would really feasibly lower your chances of sapience at a later date. I don't really see sapience as something which should be forced upon the player. There are many ways to play the game: become sapient, reach the top of the food chain, evolve into something cool, become the most populous species in an area… Plus your creature is more likely to die than survive if your specimens domesticators die out as your so reliant on them, not just for food it protection. Don't get me wrong I think domestication would be great for aware or even fiddling in the ascended game. Personally, playing as an organism that either eats grass until fat enough to kill, has to take strict orders from master or needs to be milked every day seems ridiculously tedious as you no longer need to trysurvive or even try to thrive, your friendly salient overlords do all the work for you. Just my two cents on the subject. These are good points. I want to be optimistic that it's possible to have good gameplay for this, but until we can confidently say that adding domestication is an overall improvement to the game, it's fair to suggest we leave it out.
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Post by Lanky Giraffe on Oct 18, 2016 19:14:32 GMT
Perhaps when in the OE, you could set how much time you want to jump forward to, and this would determine how many MPs you would be given to spend on. The less time you jump, the less MPs you get but it's much more safe and your environment will be very similar. The further you go, the more MPs you get but it is more risky. Perhaps if difficulties are added, easier difficulties may give you a brief summary of your planet after the time jump when in the OE. Times available could be from 10 years (you should see how quickly elephant tusks have shrunk since poaching became popular) to 100+ million years (a very risky option). This would solve problems with not knowing your climate and whether or not your habitat has been destroyed.
EDIT: Didn't check dates of previous comments, sorry.
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Skyguy98
Spacefaring
Lord of the Skies (pic found by atrox)
Posts: 1,637
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Post by Skyguy98 on Oct 19, 2016 1:26:18 GMT
That's actually a really interesting suggestion, and a interesting idea. I think the main problem with that would be the computer being able to adjust accordingly to the settings you perscribe, after all most other species will advance at the same or faster rate over the long period of time and keeping it within reason might strain the computer. But I'm not a computer guy so I'm not sure. As a concept itself that's a good idea
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Post by Omicron on Oct 19, 2016 8:06:33 GMT
That's actually a really interesting suggestion, and a interesting idea. I think the main problem with that would be the computer being able to adjust accordingly to the settings you perscribe, after all most other species will advance at the same or faster rate over the long period of time and keeping it within reason might strain the computer. But I'm not a computer guy so I'm not sure. As a concept itself that's a good idea Wouldn't the whole idea of CIV's strain your computer like crazy? As the computer will have to monitor exactly what happens with, for example, research? But then, the game would probably have required tonnes and tonnes of processing power anyway, because the AUTO-EVO is basically species: ALRE constantly playing in the background, and that program already lags my computer like crazy... Edit: that's probably my computer's fault...
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Skyguy98
Spacefaring
Lord of the Skies (pic found by atrox)
Posts: 1,637
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Post by Skyguy98 on Oct 19, 2016 11:55:46 GMT
Civs? Yeah most likely, I wasn't really talking about npc civs though I got off topic, I was talking about the whole different time scale jumps.
But yeah I think that civs, and autoevolve will both be computer hogs once we get there that will need much refinement
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Post by ATP Kraken on Oct 21, 2016 21:10:00 GMT
Autoevo would only happen in time skips, during a loading period, so your computer won't die too fast.
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Post by Lanky Giraffe on Oct 22, 2016 12:15:59 GMT
Autoevo would only happen in time skips, during a loading period, so your computer won't die too fast. Yeah that's what I was also thinking about for the time skip idea.
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Post by Omicron on Oct 22, 2016 14:19:30 GMT
Autoevo would only happen in time skips, during a loading period, so your computer won't die too fast. But cities will still grow slowly, I think... EDIT: Nevermind, buildings don't get build in those few minutes/hours that you're living...
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Post by Lanky Giraffe on Nov 22, 2016 20:45:46 GMT
Autoevo would only happen in time skips, during a loading period, so your computer won't die too fast. But cities will still grow slowly, I think... EDIT: Nevermind, buildings don't get build in those few minutes/hours that you're living... Imagine if in the time that you were playing, two CIVs were having a war against each other. That would be pretty cool to watch as an animal from the side. Maybe not as cool if it was a nuclear war though...
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Post by GRODOG on Nov 29, 2016 22:48:38 GMT
And then a glitch causes the forbidden topic about civs....
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