The_Wayward_Admiral
Spacefaring
The_Real_Slim_Shady
Atrox drew this awesome image of the Keldori!
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Post by The_Wayward_Admiral on Oct 12, 2015 16:37:23 GMT
So I was watching superhero films this weekend, and through a rambling train of thought I got from Thor punching aliens to "what if animals could see gamma rays ?". As you probably know, when visible light interacts with the opsin proteins in our retinas, the energy excites atoms within the molecules causing conformational changes that translate to electrical impulses and thus vision. So since I'm too lazy to investigate, do any of you think/know that there are limits on what kind of radiation could interact with molecules in this same way? For example, if a sadistic alien race left an animal species on a rock orbiting a quasar and left it to evolve (assuming something kept it from freezing, melting, the blood curdling screams of the dying star, etc.) could it possibly evolve to see the radio waves being thrown off it's host?
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Post by limeyhoney on Oct 13, 2015 11:49:50 GMT
We have creatures on earth that can see every type of light. Like the mantis shrimp. I may be wrong though. We had this argument in the Uetiko hunter RP.
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Post by Atrox on Oct 13, 2015 12:34:38 GMT
limeyhoney Mantis shrimp can't see all wavelengths on the electromagnetic spectrum. They just have 12 different types of photo-receptors as opposed to our 3 types. This allows them to see more colors than us, but that's about it. The_Wayward_Admiral If we evolved eyes that can handle one type of electromagnetic radiation, I don't see any reason why seeing other kinds of EMR couldn't happen... except for the fact that said eyes would need to be quite large to actually absorb the radio waves. And by quite large I mean a few feet across. At least that's what my research has shown. An organism that's mostly an eye might be able to though!
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The_Wayward_Admiral
Spacefaring
The_Real_Slim_Shady
Atrox drew this awesome image of the Keldori!
Posts: 1,011
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Post by The_Wayward_Admiral on Oct 13, 2015 14:37:52 GMT
I was reading one of Neil DeGrasse Tyson's essays last night when I couldn't sleep, and I was quite surprised to find that he actually (in a minor capacity) discussed this. In the first chapter of "death by black hole" he discusses sensation and specifically what creatures that see in different spectrums would bear witness to. He specifically called out microwaves and radio waves. And I completely agree with the assessment that any and all radio wave eyes would need to be "giant squid or bigger" type deals.
And if you want a real world creature with awesome eyes, look no further than the humble cuttlefish. It can see light's polarization, and what else could you want?
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The_Wayward_Admiral
Spacefaring
The_Real_Slim_Shady
Atrox drew this awesome image of the Keldori!
Posts: 1,011
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Post by The_Wayward_Admiral on Oct 13, 2015 14:40:18 GMT
It occurs to me that I brought up the essay and then said nothing about it: my point is that it seems possible (and quite so) based on the reading.
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Post by Atrox on Oct 13, 2015 17:24:07 GMT
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The_Wayward_Admiral
Spacefaring
The_Real_Slim_Shady
Atrox drew this awesome image of the Keldori!
Posts: 1,011
|
Post by The_Wayward_Admiral on Oct 13, 2015 20:37:04 GMT
Typically photons (like all electromagnetic radiation) travel in waves, but these waves travel in two planes. So there is a horizontal and vertical plane to the wave. Certain physical and magnetic processes can remove or diminish the radiation's motion in one or both planes, thus producing light that is "polarized". This is used to dim sunlight entering sunglasses, and is how 3D projectors work. I am certain that someone can explain this better than I can (and tell me in which ways I am wrong), but that is my understanding.
I will draw a picture when I have access to my scanner tonight.
EDIT: THIS IS WRONG IGNORE ME CHECK OUT MY MORE RECENT THREAD WHERE I FIXED MY MISTAKE.
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Post by limeyhoney on Oct 14, 2015 1:03:56 GMT
Basically, cuttlefish have shades already installed in their eyes.
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Post by Atrox on Oct 14, 2015 1:28:47 GMT
Oh nice!
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Post by Rowdy on Oct 15, 2015 15:15:17 GMT
I was just thinking... we always think of vision as being specifically located in the eyes, but as mentioned awhile ago in the "Way of the Uetiko" RP, snakes have infrared sensors located just alongside their noses, so that they can feel where it's coming from and locate prey even when "blinded."
What if there were other sorts of sensors that could do this? I imagine that some sort of vibrating membrane or specialized ear could probably at least 'see' where the radio waves are coming from. Something similar for gamma rays too, I'd figure.
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Post by Atrox on Oct 15, 2015 18:43:42 GMT
Well we do have radio antennas on our cars! Somebody look up how radio antennas work!!
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Post by Moopli on Oct 15, 2015 19:47:05 GMT
Radio antennas work because they're long pieces of metal, and EM waves cause small currents (simplifying here) which are detected.
I think, fundamentally, that there isn't really any way for radio waves to be usefully sensed by life based on biochemical reactions.
The visible part of the spectrum is special because it's the range of frequencies that correspond to the differences in potential energies of electrons in different possible orbitals in most molecules. Hence how photosynthesis works, or how bacteriorhdopsin works, or how photoreceptors work -- all use the same trick of having a chemical with a special functional group that can be easily excited by a certain band of light wavelengths (for example, the magnesium ion bound within chlorophyll, or a particular double bond in a retinal molecule), and can easily transfer that energy, for either detection or directly for use of the energy.
To detect radio waves, you need a large object capable of resonating electrically when driven by radio waves. The energies involved are too small to cause jumps in electron orbitals, instead all they can really do is give small nudges to electrons that are already only loosely-bound in the electron soup within a conductive metal.
I know that there are some relationships between the size of an antenna and the radio waves it can detect (obviously they scale together, I'm just not sure how so), but I can't say what strength of radio wave you'd need if you wanted to drive an appreciable oscillation in a microscopic antenna. I think it would have to be quite strong though.
And then there's the problem of creating the antenna, and detecting the oscillation, and driving oscillations yourself to produce your own radio waves.
All in all, this is something you'd need to develop technology to do.
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The_Wayward_Admiral
Spacefaring
The_Real_Slim_Shady
Atrox drew this awesome image of the Keldori!
Posts: 1,011
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Post by The_Wayward_Admiral on Oct 15, 2015 20:36:13 GMT
I've been doing some research, and as expected microwaves, radio waves, and gamma rays are completely unheard of in our biosphere's perception. I have seen several claims that there are animals that can see X-rays, but none have linked to a study (even if they reference it) so my science sense is tingling and it says "bs". UV and Infrared are pretty common, but as Moopli said, all the cool kids are doing visible light.
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Post by Moopli on Oct 15, 2015 23:51:00 GMT
Well, thanks to the Askaryan effect, a creature with a large, sealed eye, containing the right substances, could see cosmic rays. Does that count?
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Post by Rowdy on Oct 16, 2015 3:41:38 GMT
To help clarify for moopli:
"The Askaryan effect is the phenomenon whereby a particle traveling faster than the phase velocity of light in a dense dielectric (such as salt, ice or the lunar regolith) produces a shower of secondary charged particles which contain a charge anisotropy and thus emits a cone of coherent radiation in the radio or microwave part of the electromagnetic spectrum. It is similar to the Cherenkov effect. It is named after Gurgen Askaryan, a Soviet-Armenian physicist who postulated it in 1962. The effect was first observed experimentally in 2000, 38 years after its theoretical prediction. So far the effect has been observed in silica sand, rock salt, and ice." ~ Wikipedia
So basically: Light going faster in an electrical insulator along a direction produces extra charge and lets you see stuff in a simpler spectrum of light that you wouldn't otherwise.
So far as I understand it, anyway, so feel free to correct me if I don't.
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Post by Moopli on Oct 17, 2015 0:05:39 GMT
Aye. Of course, the big problem would be that it has to be a dielectric, and a water sack would not be, unless ultra-pure. Maybe if it's full of strongly-binding charged macromolecules, which hold all charges in place, then it'll be suitable. I don't know how you could go from vitreous humor to that sort of substance, though.
Cherenkov radiation, which more people have probably heard of, happens when charged particles move through dielectrics faster than the phase velocity of light. The Askaryan effect is simply a related, more general, effect, which works for particles that don't interact with the EM field at all, like neutrinos. It's what neutrino detectors use.
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The_Wayward_Admiral
Spacefaring
The_Real_Slim_Shady
Atrox drew this awesome image of the Keldori!
Posts: 1,011
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Post by The_Wayward_Admiral on Oct 17, 2015 15:15:19 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2015 0:24:00 GMT
limeyhoney Mantis shrimp can't see all wavelengths on the electromagnetic spectrum. They just have 12 different types of photo-receptors as opposed to our 3 types. This allows them to see more colors than us, but that's about it. The_Wayward_Admiral If we evolved eyes that can handle one type of electromagnetic radiation, I don't see any reason why seeing other kinds of EMR couldn't happen... except for the fact that said eyes would need to be quite large to actually absorb the radio waves. And by quite large I mean a few feet across. At least that's what my research has shown. An organism that's mostly an eye might be able to though! Is there a way for there skin to be part eyes? It could be to help get away from predators
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Post by limeyhoney on Dec 9, 2015 3:21:16 GMT
Wait, sorry to jump back to October 13th, but the mantis shrimp CAN see all relevant wavelengths of light. They have more photo-receptors, witch allows them to see more colours. Those colours ARE infrared, radio, micro, visible light, and ultra-violet light. They are the super creatures for sight. They can see 'heat' and our phones probably glow radio waves to them.
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Post by Longisquama on Dec 9, 2015 12:46:51 GMT
Wait, sorry to jump back to October 13th, but the mantis shrimp CAN see all relevant wavelengths of light. They have more photo-receptors, witch allows them to see more colours. Those colours ARE infrared, radio, micro, visible light, and ultra-violet light. They are the super creatures for sight. They can see 'heat' and our phones probably glow radio waves to them. They can't see neither radio nor micro. They probably can't even see infrared. Although they can see polarized light, and have 16 different photoreceptors (5 only for different kinds of UV). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantis_shrimp#Eyes
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