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Wheels
Sept 27, 2015 4:00:17 GMT
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Post by Atrox on Sept 27, 2015 4:00:17 GMT
In order to stay on topic on threads I've made a new thread to discuss organic wheels.
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Wheels
Sept 27, 2015 8:13:24 GMT
Post by afosynthesis on Sept 27, 2015 8:13:24 GMT
Just no. This will be a huge turn-off for many who are looking for a scientifically accurate Spore.
I really fail to see why organic wheels would even be superior to legs from an evolutionary standpoint. With legs you can jump, walk up cliffs, those sorts of things. With organic wheels and no powerful engine you would have a hard time on hills and mountains (if organic wheels were even possible)
Edit: Some more disadvantages of wheels. Difficulty with obstacles Difficulty swimming In some cases higher fragility than legs Easily stuck in sand, soil, clay, etc.
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Wheels
Sept 27, 2015 12:56:16 GMT
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Post by Atrox on Sept 27, 2015 12:56:16 GMT
I see you're new! Welcome to the forum! This is a community forum s we can talk about anything we want here as it does not decide what will and will not be in the final game. It's just wild speculation. Just some fun
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Wheels
Sept 27, 2015 13:12:46 GMT
Post by afosynthesis on Sept 27, 2015 13:12:46 GMT
I see you're new! Welcome to the forum! This is a community forum s we can talk about anything we want here as it does not decide what will and will not be in the final game. It's just wild speculation. Just some fun Thanks, and yes, I do know that what we say doesn't decide what the devs will put in the game. What I said was just my opinion on the matter.
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Post by Atrox on Sept 27, 2015 13:29:22 GMT
Well alrighty then in that case let's keep this thread rolling
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Post by StealthStyleL on Sept 27, 2015 13:33:52 GMT
Was that a pun?
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The_Wayward_Admiral
Spacefaring
The_Real_Slim_Shady
Atrox drew this awesome image of the Keldori!
Posts: 1,011
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Post by The_Wayward_Admiral on Sept 27, 2015 13:40:30 GMT
A nifty way to get up to speed would be to power the wheel with your choice of gaseous waste. The being could have a way to exhale down by its wheel, and as the gas leaves it gets compressed and exits at high speeds, turning the wheel. This could even be attached to a muscular switching mechanism to change direction of the wheel.
Edit: And the advantage would not lie on a mountain (where a wheeled creature would die quickly), but in the open plains, where I could see it being a highly efficient means of transport for a predator.
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Wheels
Sept 27, 2015 13:54:58 GMT
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Post by Atrox on Sept 27, 2015 13:54:58 GMT
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Wheels
Sept 27, 2015 14:07:24 GMT
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Post by Atrox on Sept 27, 2015 14:07:24 GMT
A nifty way to get up to speed would be to power the wheel with your choice of gaseous waste. The being could have a way to exhale down by its wheel, and as the gas leaves it gets compressed and exits at high speeds, turning the wheel. This could even be attached to a muscular switching mechanism to change direction of the wheel. Edit: And the advantage would not lie on a mountain (where a wheeled creature would die quickly), but in the open plains, where I could see it being a highly efficient means of transport for a predator. I thought of something similar, except what would occur is that blood would flow through the "hubcap" (in the wheeler's case, it'd be a covering of flesh). The wheel would have a turbine like structure that extended into the hubcap, and as blood flowed through the hubcap, it would be shot out of the blood vessels and into the turbine's teeth, allowing for the wheel to turn. In order for the blood to be pushed out at a powerful enough force, there would be a secondary muscular pump near the wheel to force the blood through the hubcap at a higher pressure. The released blood would then be captured at the bottom of the hubcap and sent back into circulation via some spongey tissue located im the hubcap. If the wheeler wanted to not move, it would simply close off the paths that take the blood into the turbine, and the blood would flow through the hubcap, but not through the wheel. A cool idea I had for this method of rotation is that when the wheeler would sense danger or would be scared or anything else that would cause it's heart to beat abnormally fast, the wheel(s) would begin to rotate involuntary. A flight response
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The_Wayward_Admiral
Spacefaring
The_Real_Slim_Shady
Atrox drew this awesome image of the Keldori!
Posts: 1,011
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Wheels
Sept 27, 2015 15:12:57 GMT
Post by The_Wayward_Admiral on Sept 27, 2015 15:12:57 GMT
Atrox, your method of powering it is definitely more sustainable over distance than mine. And in reference to how such a mechanic could arise (basing it off of the development stages you described in "Way of the Uetiko Hunter"), I have a thought. A species is at first running in the open plaines. Eventually it starts hopping. In order to hop more efficiently, the lower limbs fuse. A mutation arises that causes a deformation of the lower bones into an axel and "wheel". Individuals whose wheel is superior survive better, eventually the cells surrounding the wheel under go planned apoptosis and there you have it. So I wouldn't say that biological wheels violate LAWK, they're just prohibitively improbable.
Edit: I realize it seems a bit of a jump from hopping to wheel, but the thing is that there are relatively few genes that regulate limb formation, so if a species has a string of fortunate mutations, bone development could be thrown way off track in just a few tens of generations (nothing compared to the geological time scale).
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Wheels
Sept 27, 2015 16:28:10 GMT
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Post by Atrox on Sept 27, 2015 16:28:10 GMT
The way I imagined it was evolved is: At a very early stage in their evolutionary timeline, they used a waterwheel like structure to help propel them in the water (when they were still aquatic). Afterwards when they began moving onto land, the circulatory system wasn't powerful enough to actually propel them using their wheel so during the time they were adapting to life on land they'd use their forelimbs to drag themselves forward while their wheel rolled behind them, involuntarily working the pump in their legs. Many generations later their heart and leg pumps become much more powerful and their water wheel becomes a proper terrestrial wheel, so they are able to use them for proper movement. Their tail has lengthened and stiffened in order to maintain balance. They are now optimized for unicyclical travel.
I'm not sure why exactly they'd evolve a wheel so early on, honestly, but that was what I'd come up with for them at the time.
EDIT: Your idea is pretty great though
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The_Wayward_Admiral
Spacefaring
The_Real_Slim_Shady
Atrox drew this awesome image of the Keldori!
Posts: 1,011
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Wheels
Sept 27, 2015 16:50:24 GMT
Post by The_Wayward_Admiral on Sept 27, 2015 16:50:24 GMT
I certainly didn't want to impose canon on the Cyclorotans, I was just aiming for a general justification.
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Wheels
Sept 27, 2015 17:09:57 GMT
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Post by Atrox on Sept 27, 2015 17:09:57 GMT
Oh don't worry I'm always looking for ways to improve my creations. But how plausible do you think evolving a water wheel is? That's the only thing that I'm wondering.
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The_Wayward_Admiral
Spacefaring
The_Real_Slim_Shady
Atrox drew this awesome image of the Keldori!
Posts: 1,011
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Wheels
Sept 27, 2015 17:18:57 GMT
Post by The_Wayward_Admiral on Sept 27, 2015 17:18:57 GMT
Most of my education is in Chemistry, so I apologize to everyone who is about to grind their teeth through this post. But I think a water wheel would work, just in a different way to the normal conception of one. As you've probably pondered, no matter which way you spin the wheel underwater, you'll probably produce more angular momentum than directional. So you'd spin more than you'd propel if the wheel was on the tail (either vertical or horizontal). So the way I see it (and again my understanding of physics is limited) one would need to have wheels on either side working together to couter-act the rotational motion and produce forward thrust. So when moving on land, the creature would need to merge them into one. Now if I could draw I would illustrate my point, and if I can do so with a degree of accuracy I'll make an edit a little later (but my artistry leaves a lot to be desired). Please let me know if this is uncler and I can go into better detail.
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Wheels
Sept 27, 2015 17:36:27 GMT
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Post by Atrox on Sept 27, 2015 17:36:27 GMT
I think I get what you're saying yeah! I still would love to see an illustration though
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Wheels
Sept 27, 2015 17:36:35 GMT
Post by mitobox on Sept 27, 2015 17:36:35 GMT
Imagine a big herbivore with multiple wheels coming together for a tank tread...
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Wheels
Sept 27, 2015 17:45:36 GMT
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Post by Atrox on Sept 27, 2015 17:45:36 GMT
Imagine a big herbivore with multiple wheels coming together for a tank tread... I am going to draw this....
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The_Wayward_Admiral
Spacefaring
The_Real_Slim_Shady
Atrox drew this awesome image of the Keldori!
Posts: 1,011
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Wheels
Sept 27, 2015 17:49:07 GMT
Post by The_Wayward_Admiral on Sept 27, 2015 17:49:07 GMT
behold the beauty of my Microsoft Paint skills!
In figure 1, the wheel is under water. It spins and pushes off of the water equally at all angles, and so will only rotate in the direction it's going. Same deal with figure 2. In figure three, the wheel on the left is pushing water clockwise, and the one on the right counter clockwise. If they were attached to the same body, then the rotation would cancel out, BUT the force of the water moving "backwards" would stay the same, producing thrust. Now it's more than possible that my horrible understanding of physics is missing something, but this is the situation as I understand it.
Edit: Now that I think about it, air is effectively just a super un-dense fluid, and their are things that maintain motion by rotation in the air. A Frisbee only needs a gentle push and then its rotation keeps it going. So if a creature was able to produce a minor amount of forward thrust first, it might just need one wheel to keep it going.
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Wheels
Sept 27, 2015 17:54:15 GMT
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Post by Atrox on Sept 27, 2015 17:54:15 GMT
It looks right to me! So if I'm understanding correctly an ancestor to the Cyclorotans would look like an underwater airplane almost? And generations down the line the two water "wings" would fuse underneath it to form a leg with a wheel at the end?
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The_Wayward_Admiral
Spacefaring
The_Real_Slim_Shady
Atrox drew this awesome image of the Keldori!
Posts: 1,011
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Wheels
Sept 27, 2015 17:56:21 GMT
Post by The_Wayward_Admiral on Sept 27, 2015 17:56:21 GMT
That's one engineer-in-training's take on it. I will brush up on the subject and get back on the accuracy of my current depiction.
Edit: I'm being thick. Your depiction works extremely well. If a wheel were oriented like an airplane propeller, it would work perfectly. It could be a single wheel, in the correct place, requiring almost no physiological change for a land dwelling animal.
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