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Post by Omicron on Dec 4, 2016 14:24:50 GMT
I think we all want to use agent emitters. The only problem with agents is, that they will probably absolutely demolish your own cell, as it is constantly being in contact with your own emitted agents. This is why I think we need an extra organelle: The compound repellent membrane. This organelle can be either used as a type of membrane (the same way as a cell wall or cilia), or as a kind of external organelle, or as an upgrade to the normal membrane.
(I'm not sure which one would be the best, I guess you guys at Revolutionary Games studios can decide).
Of course this will repel cyanide and all of that good stuff, but maybe you can, for balancing reasons, also remove the ability to absorb any other compound if you use it, so you'll have to leave gaps, or, if it is added as the upgrade or just the type of membrane, you would need another organelle: the compound port (if you have a better name, please say it), which is an organelle which can open or close to allow compounds (but also agents) to pass through.
(If it isn't put in microbe, we definitely need it in multicellular, as one wouldn't be able to create stomachs that do not dissolve the creature itself)
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Post by tjwhale on Dec 4, 2016 15:56:19 GMT
By compounds do you mean agents? (Like toxins you can fire at another cell to injure them?)
The plan for them is to have them have codes and the organelles have codes and have their effects based on the amount of overlap between the codes. That might sound complicated but basically it's like each agent is a key and each organelle has a lock. If the key fits the lock then the agent damages the organelle, if it doesn't then nothing happens (and keys can kind of half fit the lock).
So basically you just make sure all your organelles have locks such that the keys you fire don't affect them. Then you can spray them everywhere with impunity.
The agent system could go really far. Like for example you can have an agent to summon more of your species to swim around with you but maybe a predator could start to hunt this compound, knowing it's a way of finding big groups of your cell.
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Post by Omicron on Dec 4, 2016 16:11:06 GMT
But then how would you know which organelles are immune/weak vs which agents? and wouldn't you be basically restricted in only using certain organelles, as the others would be destroyed by the agents. Also, last of all, it sounds pretty illogical...
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Post by tjwhale on Dec 4, 2016 16:39:32 GMT
"how would you know which organelles are immune/weak vs which agents"
yeah we talked about that a bit. One possibility is to have you choose your agent based on what you want to target. So if you want to knock out a certain species flagella you pick an agent which is best at that. It will probably affect other cells in other ways, but that's just a bonus.
"as the others would be destroyed by the agents"
agents would probably be more about temporarily disabling organelles than outright killing them (as that would probably also kill the cell). So it's more like you can disable a cell from running away or you can stop it producing sugar for a while, some temporary effects could be pretty lethal.
"it sounds pretty illogical"
it's based loosely on how things actually work. So cells make proteins which bind to other cells. The protein binding is done in something like this lock and key way (proteins bind to binding sites they "fit into"). So it's a reasonable system IMO.
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Post by Omicron on Dec 4, 2016 16:51:21 GMT
"Certain species flagella"
What do you mean with that? just differently upgraded ones, or full-on different kind, which would probably just make the game way more complicated, as every organelle would have different versions, and every microbe would use those different versions, and you'd have to remember all of them, as you'd have to know which agent to use, etc.
Also, it would basically be impossible to use it as defense... (for example, when trying to disable the enemy's flagella, disabling your's as well
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Post by tjwhale on Dec 4, 2016 18:04:15 GMT
"Certain species flagella" What do you mean with that? just differently upgraded ones, or full-on different kind, which would probably just make the game way more complicated, as every organelle would have different versions, and every microbe would use those different versions, and you'd have to remember all of them, as you'd have to know which agent to use, etc. Also, it would basically be impossible to use it as defense... (for example, when trying to disable the enemy's flagella, disabling your's as well Yeah. Where we got to with it is that all flagella should be a bit similar but each species will have a slightly different code. So you could make an agent specific enough to disable another cell and not yours. |
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Post by Omicron on Dec 4, 2016 18:51:19 GMT
Yeah. Where we got to with it is that all flagella should be a bit similar but each species will have a slightly different code. So you could make an agent specific enough to disable another cell and not yours. So the agents will only work against a specific cell... which would then be able to evolve to a different code, forcing you to mutate a new agent, and so on and so on... |
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Post by tjwhale on Dec 4, 2016 21:14:29 GMT
Yeah. Where we got to with it is that all flagella should be a bit similar but each species will have a slightly different code. So you could make an agent specific enough to disable another cell and not yours. So the agents will only work against a specific cell... which would then be able to evolve to a different code, forcing you to mutate a new agent, and so on and so on... Depending on how it's setup your agent might work on a lot of different stuff. So like 100% against species A flagella, 50% against other species flagella, 0% against your flagella and 23% against species B's mitochondria. Odd stuff like that. Yeah the goal is to have an eternal arms race. So they are always evolving defences and you have to keep adapting your weapons. It's called the red queen hypothesis. |
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Post by Omicron on Dec 5, 2016 12:12:40 GMT
Depending on how it's setup your agent might work on a lot of different stuff. So like 100% against species A flagella, 50% against other species flagella, 0% against your flagella and 23% against species B's mitochondria. Odd stuff like that. Yeah the goal is to have an eternal arms race. So they are always evolving defenses and you have to keep adapting your weapons. It's called the red queen hypothesis. But wouldn't Auto-EVO create a tonne of different creatures, all of which have different species and such. Also, wouldn't there be multiple agents that just do damage like Or would that also not work against a lot of enemies? |
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Post by tjwhale on Dec 5, 2016 18:42:48 GMT
But wouldn't Auto-EVO create a tonne of different creatures, all of which have different species and such. Also, wouldn't there be multiple agents that just do damage like Or would that also not work against a lot of enemies? It depends how many possible codes there are. So assume a code is 2 digits long and made up of either 0's or 1's. The possible codes are then 00, 01, 10, 11 so if you fire an agent with code 11 it will affect ~25% of all the organelles in the game. If the codes are 100 digits long then the amount your code will affect will be very small. Therefore we can balance it how we want, so agents are effective but not crazy good. So if an agent effects cell walls then it won't effect all cell walls, just some. |
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Post by Omicron on Dec 6, 2016 15:57:42 GMT
It depends how many possible codes there are. So assume a code is 2 digits long and made up of either 0's or 1's. The possible codes are then 00, 01, 10, 11 so if you fire an agent with code 11 it will affect ~25% of all the organelles in the game. If the codes are 100 digits long then the amount your code will affect will be very small. Therefore we can balance it how we want, so agents are effective but not crazy good. So if an agent effects cell walls then it won't effect all cell walls, just some. I see. But still two things: It would maybe work as a defense vs other agents, and I guess you'd still need it to make a stomache |
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Post by tjwhale on Dec 6, 2016 18:38:55 GMT
I see. But still two things: It would maybe work as a defense vs other agents, and I guess you'd still need it to make a stomache So a thick, plant like, cell wall would be one way to defend against agents. But it would make you very slow, so it's a trade off. And yeah you're right about stomachs, they need to be special cells with lining. Not sure if we will get round to differentiating them. We'll have to see. |
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