TheGraveKnight
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Post by TheGraveKnight on Sept 7, 2016 18:51:55 GMT
Now I don`t see any reason this won`t be put into Thrive, but I have a few ideas about how these could work.
Diseases could be contracted in a multitude of ways, from eating meat that was spoiled or already diseased, being bitten by something that has a disease, infecting wounds, etc. But could there be way to use disease and/or bacteria to your advantage? Komodo Dragons' have bacteria-filled saliva in their mouths which they used to infect and weaken their prey (I remember reading somewhere that this their equivalent to venom).
Poison could be squirted, secreted, spat, etc and if something swallows it it, they have a chance to be poisoned. But your organism could also evolve the "warning colors" to tell other organisms that you shouldn`t be hunted.
Venom could be injected using thorns, fangs, barbs and other spiky things (maybe even tentacles or other appendages?), When injected, depending on the strength of the venom, the organism you injected could overcome it if they properly maintain health (assuming the venom isn`t extreremly lethal like a box jellyfish's), if not or if you regularly inject that same organism with more venom, it will succumb and die.
Maybe these could all also be transmitted through blood, I mean there are numerous blood-related diseases and the Thorny Lizard squirts it's blood at predators, what if there was a way to "venomize" your blood in a sense?
I don`t know if this is even scientifically accurate but lemme know what you think.
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Post by Mouthwash on Sept 7, 2016 19:08:31 GMT
Why does there have to be disease? It adds yet another variable for the devs to balance and doesn't seem necessary (or fun).
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Post by GRODOG on Sept 7, 2016 19:12:09 GMT
What if some microbes evolve into a disease? Or what if ur a mosquito like species and u are immune to it but u can carry it and u start infecting everyone u bite!! And who knows if another species is sentient on the same planet they could first try to study you and the disease and then try to make a cure for it and start a war against ur species... so its technically the 3 plagues transmitted by mosquitoes where i live but from the mosquito's perspective... this could also happen the other way around...
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Post by Mouthwash on Sept 7, 2016 19:38:16 GMT
Most infectious organisms are bacteria, which we will not be able to play as. Creating a parasitic species like worms or lice would require an exponentially more complicated system than is currently planned, and would have very little payoff in terms of overall gameplay.
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TheGraveKnight
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The Motivational Army is watching
Posts: 1,170
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Post by TheGraveKnight on Sept 7, 2016 20:14:22 GMT
Most infectious organisms are bacteria, which we will not be able to play as. Creating a parasitic species like worms or lice would require an exponentially more complicated system than is currently planned, and would have very little payoff in terms of overall gameplay. It`s called unique dynamics and encouraging creative adaptations and/or problem solving. For example, if disease is in the game and you are a carnivore, you can`t just devour anyone and everyone. You need to be a little more wary because, if you eat something diseased, it could all be over for you. You could also evolve ways of dealing with disease, be it a powerful immune/digestive system, sensors that allow to determine what is and isn`t potentially harmful or something else entirely. |
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Post by Mouthwash on Sept 7, 2016 20:20:56 GMT
Most infectious organisms are bacteria, which we will not be able to play as. Creating a parasitic species like worms or lice would require an exponentially more complicated system than is currently planned, and would have very little payoff in terms of overall gameplay. It`s called unique dynamics and encouraging creative adaptations and/or problem solving. No, what you're really advocating is complication. Put enough "dynamics" into a game and it becomes impossible to balance, or even play for anyone not willing to spend days learning how every subsystem works. Go try out Victoria II if you want to see what I mean. |
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TheGraveKnight
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Post by TheGraveKnight on Sept 7, 2016 20:27:37 GMT
It`s called unique dynamics and encouraging creative adaptations and/or problem solving. If I tamper with the rules enough, I can make chess into a simulator of twentieth-century geopolitics. Doesn't mean that chess is improved by that level of depth. So you`re saying that Thrive should take the easy route and just ditch the idea of diseases? Sorry, but that sounds really shallow and boring. |
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Post by Mouthwash on Sept 7, 2016 20:38:12 GMT
If I tamper with the rules enough, I can make chess into a simulator of twentieth-century geopolitics. Doesn't mean that chess is improved by that level of depth. So you`re saying that Thrive should take the easy route and just ditch the idea of diseases? Sorry, but that sounds really shallow and boring. Sorry, I apparently edited my post after you quoted it. Shallowness and boredom are subjective measures. Thrive is going to be tremendously complicated compared to almost any other game. It's not a very effective (or polite) approach to propose something and than declare that a refusal to implement it is taking 'the easy route.' |
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TheGraveKnight
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The Motivational Army is watching
Posts: 1,170
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Post by TheGraveKnight on Sept 7, 2016 20:42:48 GMT
Sorry for the salt, I have a bit of a temper  It doesn`t seem like much on paper but then again, I am a 14 year-old dork in his room without friends so I don`t really understand much about game development, I just thought it would be cool. As for the easy route thing, like I said up top, temper. |
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Post by Mouthwash on Sept 7, 2016 20:49:42 GMT
It's alright. I probably shouldn't have been going around refuting people's notions because they don't meet my standards either (this is a community forum). Soren Johnson gave a pretty good explanation, if you're interested. |
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Post by Atrox on Sept 7, 2016 20:59:44 GMT
I mean diseases and stuff play a large part in natural selection and societies so I don't see how they won't be included in the game, Mouthwash. Diseases could be contracted in a multitude of ways, from eating meat that was spoiled or already diseased, being bitten by something that has a disease, infecting wounds, etc. But could there be way to use disease and/or bacteria to your advantage? Komodo Dragons' have bacteria-filled saliva in their mouths which they used to infect and weaken their prey (I remember reading somewhere that this their equivalent to venom). This is a really cool idea. I didn't know komodo dragons used bacterial bites to kill their prey. I'd hoped to do something similar except with an outer layer of mucus that traps bacteria and makes them dangerous to even touch. |
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Post by Mouthwash on Sept 7, 2016 21:04:54 GMT
I mean diseases and stuff play a large part in natural selection and societies so I don't see how they won't be included in the game. The point is really that natural selection and social development work just fine without it. I mean, maybe there could be some kind of mechanic added after the stages are largely fleshed out, but I can't imagine having actual, defined diseases/parasites realistically spread and affect a population. |
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Post by Atrox on Sept 7, 2016 21:10:01 GMT
I mean diseases and stuff play a large part in natural selection and societies so I don't see how they won't be included in the game. The point is really that natural selection and social development work just fine without it. I mean, maybe there could be some kind of mechanic added after the stages are largely fleshed out, but I can't imagine having actual infections realistically spread and affect a population. Well yeah of course we could run that stuff without the diseases, but I don't see why we couldn't include it either. So it's another factor to watch out for when evolving, how will that hinder gameplay so much that the game becomes impossible to balance? There have been cases of diseases wiping out large swathes of a population EDIT: I personally would like to see diseases in the game, but yeah I wouldn't expect to see it until later in the stage's development. |
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Post by Mouthwash on Sept 7, 2016 21:13:58 GMT
The point is really that natural selection and social development work just fine without it. I mean, maybe there could be some kind of mechanic added after the stages are largely fleshed out, but I can't imagine having actual infections realistically spread and affect a population. So it's another factor to watch out for when evolving, how will that hinder gameplay so much that the game becomes impossible to balance? From what I understand, the process of evolution in Thrive is pretty complicated already. If you add a mechanic, you have balance it with almost every other mechanic. |
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Post by Atrox on Sept 7, 2016 21:15:51 GMT
So it's another factor to watch out for when evolving, how will that hinder gameplay so much that the game becomes impossible to balance? From what I understand, the process of evolution in Thrive is pretty complicated already. If you add a mechanic, you have balance it with almost every other mechanic. That is true. I suppose we could get someone like tjwhale or Moopli to ask how hard it would be to add diseases as a factor to consider when the game does Auto-Evo. |
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Post by Mouthwash on Sept 7, 2016 22:35:44 GMT
I should also mention that I like the OP's ideas about venom and poisons, although I don't know if blood will be implemented in detail (I think it will, but I could be wrong there).
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Post by GRODOG on Sept 7, 2016 22:38:04 GMT
Most infectious organisms are bacteria, which we will not be able to play as. Creating a parasitic species like worms or lice would require an exponentially more complicated system than is currently planned, and would have very little payoff in terms of overall gameplay. It`s called unique dynamics and encouraging creative adaptations and/or problem solving. For example, if disease is in the game and you are a carnivore, you can`t just devour anyone and everyone. You need to be a little more wary because, if you eat something diseased, it could all be over for you. You could also evolve ways of dealing with disease, be it a powerful immune/digestive system, sensors that allow to determine what is and isn`t potentially harmful or something else entirely. what about the brain eating amoeba, the diarrhea amoeba, Malaria, or other eukaryotic plagues? and for parasitism... we wont be able to go inside the host but we can be like leeches that stick to it and drink the nutients... plus bacteria can be a plague or npc microbes but we cant play as a plague because multicellular organisms wont appear til we reach the stage... and another type would be viruses but we dont know if those will be in the microbe stage yet... and we obviously wont be able to play as them... and yes blood will be represented (since in the wiki it said that in the organism editor when making the organs u can choose the color of the blood (even make it poisonous lol)) but besides that it would take alot of work to make it... well we could atleast get bacteria and probably viruses (could be premade or procedually generated to add a bit of alien to it but not able to evolve) |
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Post by StealthStyleL on Sept 8, 2016 7:46:37 GMT
Could we have diseases that randomly appear, based on your difficulty settings, as a disaster (like a volcanic eruptions) rather than an evolutionary factor? So, it randomly spawns with a selection of pre created traits and level of potency, so the game does not have to simulate parasitic species and the like, just generic disease. That way, instead of having species try to evolve specific defences against certain diseases with Auto-Evo, they can evolve a generic immune system and better defences. It's less complicated and demanding...I hope. Am started no to doubt whether there's actually a difference between what I'm suggesting and what others before have. Does this make sense?
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Post by GRODOG on Sept 8, 2016 10:52:06 GMT
Could we have diseases that randomly appear, based on your difficulty settings, as a disaster (like a volcanic eruptions) rather than an evolutionary factor? So, it randomly spawns with a selection of pre created traits and level of potency, so the game does not have to simulate parasitic species and the like, just generic disease. That way, instead of having species try to evolve specific defences against certain diseases with Auto-Evo, they can evolve a generic immune system and better defences. It's less complicated and demanding...I hope. Am started no to doubt whether there's actually a difference between what I'm suggesting and what others before have. Does this make sense? thats actually a good idea!! having them procedually generated helps adding the "alien" bits of it!! and about the parasites... they wont be internal the only parasite we can have are leech-like... |
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Post by Moopli on Sept 8, 2016 18:21:40 GMT
Alright braindump time:
- toxins: the agent system we're working on uses 'similarity codes' to decide how potently an agent affects an organelle (or other non-organelle microbe features, like cytoskeleton, plasma membrane, etc). Given the direction we currently seem to be leaning for extrapolation to multicellular, I think we'd be able to extend toxins to affecting tissues and thus organs and thus organisms the same way. Kinda like a change in coordinate system. It might make the calculation of fitness a lot more complicated though.
- parasites (including malaria etc) will probably have to be modeled very differently, and I'm not sure how we'd handle the effect on either the parasite or host.
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