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Post by Moopli on Sept 8, 2016 19:11:07 GMT
Good idea. Heck, if we make several imagesets for players to vote on, then we could just ship them all and tell people how to switch which one the game uses, and later implement something in the options menu to let people switch without having to edit game files.
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Post by Oliveriver on Sept 8, 2016 20:26:30 GMT
If something like that does happen, I would recommend everyone read this first, because it covers all the problems with the current GUI and some attempts at responses to them. I personally detest it despite having been the one who made it, and I'm also the only one with access to the original file in a design program (and before you ask whether it can be given to someone else, it's a relatively obscure program, not Photoshop or Gimp). If the consensus is to stay with the current one, that raises several massive problems: 1. There are countless features planned for later which it doesn't account for. No suicide button, no processes screen, no ability to show reproduction progress, a temporary editor layout. It would technically be possible to add those features (if a pain in the backside since my organisation of the design file was abhorrent), but with the amount of ripping apart that's needed why not just start again and fix everyone else's gripes at the same time? 2. What size screen do you use? The current GUI looks kind of alrightish on large screens but on small screens it's horribly cramped. The shards by design have massive amounts of empty space, which in my opinion was a mistake on my part. With a new GUI we can take this into account from the start rather than adapting something and making compromises along the way. 3. The current GUI was always meant to be temporary. I knew that when I made it. It just had to look and function better than what was already in place, which I think most will agree it did. All the time since I've been hoping we'd chance upon a GUI design specialist to replace everything, but as it stands while we have some talented artists, none have in-depth UI experience. If the proposal is to keep it as the proper GUI forever I'm vehemently against that. I'm completely open to a design different to the current one and my proposal as long as it comes with plenty of justification for its design decisions, which is what I've been trying to do as I sketch a new version. If somehow the shards can be made to work without the problems inherent in the current design, brilliant, but I really don't think that solution is possible just by tinkering with what we already have as Mouthwash is suggesting. Trust me, I have the original file. It's a mess and I'd prefer never to have to open it again.
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Post by Mouthwash on Sept 8, 2016 22:23:11 GMT
If something like that does happen, I would recommend everyone read this first, because it covers all the problems with the current GUI and some attempts at responses to them. The criticism is nuts: "i clicked the x expecting menu but i closed the game. Honestly its a good thing its there because it saved my valuable time from being wasted at looking at the horrid GUI."I've never once had this problem, seeing as there is a button saying "main menu" right beside it. You can add some mouseover text to tell players what it does anyway. "The icons are ridiculous. I dont know how many times i clicked something not knowing with confidence what will happen. Unless thats the effect you want it for."
There are five icons during gameplay. One is the reproduction button, which is pretty hard to mistake. Another is the main submenu button in the bottom left, which is admittedly (but fixably) misleading. The other three are on the submenu: the save button, which has a big floppy disk on it (the universal symbol for 'save'), the help button, which has a question mark, and the load button, which is intuitively underneath the save button. The nonfunctional icons (options and statistics) have a gear and a bar graph, respectively. I couldn't get confused if I tried. "The main issue for me is specifically the compounds tab. The left and right edges are so spacious it's kind of annoying to have up, especially if you want to keep constant tabs on your compound levels."
This is no longer the case. That's certainly an opinion. It's not a good opinion as far as I'm concerned, but it's an opinion. Which can't be found anywhere on the internet and/or costs a lot of money? Whose files can't be transferred to any other program? The suicide button should be tiny and placed up somewhere around the upper-right menu button. Are people going to be suiciding in every game? I thought it was a fallback mechanism. Use it where the big compound counters are displayed right now. The reproduction button is certainly big enough to handle that. I do agree that the editor is terrible, but it would be acceptable at this stage if things were made a bit more transparent. Ripping apart? These all seem like incredibly straightforward things to add, unless I'm completely misunderstanding what you mean by 'processes screen' or 'reproduction progress.' 1366x768, which is by far the most common size. About 70% of people will have a comparable or larger screen. Besides, we can cut some buttons for smaller screens, and put them in a dropdown list instead. Virgil hated the Aeneid, Arthur Conan Doyle hated Sherlock Holmes, and John Conway hates the Game of Life. Artists don't have to like their creations for the rest of us to. Would you be swayed by an overwhelming poll result in favor of keeping it? I don't see a reason that the current UI couldn't be replicated in a more common program, even without your files. It's a pretty simple design.
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Post by TheCreator on Sept 9, 2016 4:34:40 GMT
What's wrong with catfish?
In all seriousness though, I have made a poll on the development forum a couple hours ago, so we'll see where that takes us. I was very against switching from the current GUI, and I really liked it, but after seeing oliver's new render, I am happy to switch. I am think that we don't need a suicide button, at the very most we can just have a hotkey that does this (after a confirmation dialogue of course). Minimalism is the way to go.
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Post by Mouthwash on Sept 9, 2016 5:42:26 GMT
In all seriousness though, I have made a poll on the development forum a couple hours ago, so we'll see where that takes us. I did advocate this to be a poll for everybody. I won't be... but it's not quite so bad as I feared. I like that the 'combination' option is winning. There's always going to be somebody who won't figure that out. I think it should just be smaller. My biggest gripe with it is that ATP is represented in green, and green should always be health. That's universal. I assume that health is now represented by the white bar above the compounds, which is bad. Bars like that simply don't catch the eye; it needs to be the twin to the ATP bar. And finally, the numbers (and their denominators) need to be equal in size and placed in the center of their bars. Other than that, I don't see any problems.
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Post by Oliveriver on Sept 9, 2016 11:12:55 GMT
My biggest gripe with it is that ATP is represented in green, and green should always be health. That's universal. I assume that health is now represented by the white bar above the compounds, which is bad. Bars like that simply don't catch the eye; it needs to be the twin to the ATP bar. And finally, the numbers (and their denominators) need to be equal in size and placed in the center of their bars. Other than that, I don't see any problems. ATP is health (or will be once the new health mechanics are implemented). The white bar is a scrollbar for the lower list of compounds. Anyway, I made a compromise design. Feel free to pick that apart too since you seem to enjoy that.
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Post by tritium on Sept 9, 2016 11:21:26 GMT
Hello guys l've been following the thread in the dev forum and unable to post there i'll write here Image Oliver's elegant design could be combined with crystaline shards, the bars could be part of the shards structure Bottom for compounds going up from left to right. Bellow them a bar for reproduction. The top left one could contain the divide button. Another thing with diffrent biomes and color themes the gui must look good in all of them so maybe more grayish blue would be nice.
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Post by Oliveriver on Sept 9, 2016 11:57:58 GMT
Hi Tritium! Nice to see you back. I moved your post here since it's more relevant to this.
I did try to do that but whatever I tried the result was too messy. It may be possible to do that, and my latest design is an attempt at it.
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Post by tritium on Sept 9, 2016 12:13:41 GMT
Contrast between the shard and bars, names, numbers could take care of that also transparency of the shard body and the information stuff being solid. EDIT: Just saw your new gui, it looks amazing!
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Post by Mouthwash on Sept 9, 2016 19:51:53 GMT
My biggest gripe with it is that ATP is represented in green, and green should always be health. That's universal. I assume that health is now represented by the white bar above the compounds, which is bad. Bars like that simply don't catch the eye; it needs to be the twin to the ATP bar. And finally, the numbers (and their denominators) need to be equal in size and placed in the center of their bars. Other than that, I don't see any problems. ATP is health (or will be once the new health mechanics are implemented). The white bar is a scrollbar for the lower list of compounds. Anyway, I made a compromise design. Feel free to pick that apart too since you seem to enjoy that. I'm sorry! I wasn't trying to bring you down, I just want it to work well. I think that your compromise is perfect and I would welcome it being in the finished game. The only nit I have to pick is that compounds represented on the 'dropup' bar to the right are redundant if they're also on the bottom, and they take space away from those that aren't (amino acids, ammonia, carbon dioxide). Or does the bottom also have those listed, since it has a scrollbar?
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Post by Atrox on Sept 9, 2016 20:18:23 GMT
Well the way it works is that you can choose which compounds can be seen at all times in the bottom bar via the dropup menu.
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Post by Mouthwash on Sept 9, 2016 21:33:51 GMT
Well the way it works is that you can choose which compounds can be seen at all times in the bottom bar via the dropup menu. Ah, that makes perfect sense but somehow didn't occur to me.
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Post by TheCreator on Sept 10, 2016 2:33:02 GMT
I posted this on the dev forum, but I'm just writing this here again for the people that don't check those forums regulaly. ATP isn't health. It's a completely different, yet related mechanic. If you get stabbed repeatedly, your cell will lose health, and some organelles might even stop working, but as long as your mitochondria are fine and you've got enough glucose storage, your ATP will not change at all. And I love the newest version of the UI you made, it's really going to be hard for someone to find something wrong with it.
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bur
Multicellular
Posts: 22
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Post by bur on Sept 29, 2016 4:20:02 GMT
As far as the minimalist vs. idiot-proof argumant is concerned, why not have a simple tickbox in the options dialogue that allows you to enable "Minimal UI", which would simply hide all UI elements that have hotkeys (except the editor button since it seems to display reproduction progress in the current design)? Other suggestions (based on this image): - Make the compound bars about half or two-thirds their current size (both width and height), allowing more space for more compound bars.
- Make the partially-hidden compound bar progressively transparent the more of it is hidden.
Alternatively, get rid of the horizontal scrollbar and just add more horizontal compound panels on top of eachother, as many as needed.
- The compound icons look great, but IMO they could be more "readable".
- Place the compound amount directly after the name, i.e. "ATP: 50/100".
- Nearly depleted compounds could have a red border, maybe flash slowly.
- I like the idea of using the editor button to show reproduction progress, but I think it would look better if the border of the button is always shown entirely.
- Tooltips, tooltips everywhere! More specifically, each compound should have a tooltip explaining exactly what it's used for.
- What are comounds?
- Do away with the Thrive logo. It's a nice idea, but it takes a lot of space and isn't necessarily intuitive for everyone. Instead, divide the current menu button into two halves: the top one being the pause/resume button; and the bottom one being the menu button in the same style as the Pause/Suicide/Processes buttons. The suicide button can then be placed back next to the health bar.
The logo could be integrated into the menu overlay somehow.
That design looks excellent already though! IMO a great improvement over the current GUI. Oh, and make the suicide button red. It is dangerous Here's a crude mockup: Oliveriver's design is definitely more in balance visually. Just some ideas thrown together. IMO it's better to have all the compounds in view rather than the complicated tickbox & slider menu. Another version: Thought: do we need a pause button? Pressing the menu, editor or processes (or stats) buttons pauses the game anyway. If all you want to do is pause to take a break, you could just push menu. So maybe replace the Pause/Play button with a Fossilize button?
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bur
Multicellular
Posts: 22
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Post by bur on Sept 29, 2016 10:46:25 GMT
Sorry for double post, but I've reached maximum number of attachments. So one more smudge-tastic concept, probably the last: - Actually, in the second image it should be 0 compounds: 0 panels; 1-3 compounds: 1 panel
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Post by Atrox on Sept 29, 2016 10:52:06 GMT
I do like that second one quite a bit.
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bur
Multicellular
Posts: 22
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Post by bur on Sept 29, 2016 11:11:18 GMT
Glad you like it. I feel like putting the reproduction/editor button with the compounds panel(s) makes more sense conceptually, since you interact with those things more or less directly. The top panel deals with life and death (processes are what makes a cell alive, etc.), and centering it makes it more visually accessible because you don't need to look to your left. The compounds panels in the second post allow the user to more easily decide how to utilize screenspace, and potentially makes more information visible at a glance, while eliminating a scrollbar. A few more thoughts (building on my 3rd concept) and then I'm out - The ATP bar could potentially be put directly underneath the health bar, in which case IMO it should be similar in style to the health bar but smaller.
- Reproduction progress could be displayed inside the editor in distinct colours representing each respective compound, instead of the uniform blue that fills the button now.
- Alternatively, reproduction progress could be moved to the panel above the editor button, which could be expanded to a menu more like the compounds panel on the left.
- I don't know if it's possible, but it would be great if you could arrange/order the compounds with drag-and-drop.
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Post by Oliveriver on Sept 29, 2016 17:17:33 GMT
I did wonder whether a minimalist toggle would be useful, so if we can create a cleaner version then I'm all for it. Make the compound bars about half or two-thirds their current size (both width and height), allowing more space for more compound bars. Perhaps. I think that goes beyond the limit of keeping them legible, and considering NickTheNick doesn't like the smaller icons already I think it may not be the best option. I'm open to it though. Make the partially-hidden compound bar progressively transparent the more of it is hidden. Alternatively, get rid of the horizontal scrollbar and just add more horizontal compound panels on top of eachother, as many as needed. I'd love a proper transparency effect thing for that cutoff bar but unfortunately I don't know how to code it (it's why I've been so conservative with the designs for the editor button filling up). If it's possible with CEGUI then yes, definitely. I'm uncertain about piling rows of bars on top of one another - if the panel extends as more are added it makes implementing it into the game while still having it match up with the surrounding elements monstrously difficult but not impossible. I don't like the scrollbar either but I'm struggling to think of a better alternative. The compound icons look great, but IMO they could be more "readable". How so? Place the compound amount directly after the name, i.e. "ATP: 50/100". Remind me to do this next time I make a design. It's worth trying. Nearly depleted compounds could have a red border, maybe flash slowly. Good idea but sometimes the player may not be able to store or process compounds, so those bars would be flashing constantly for no reason. Perhaps instead of basing it on absolute value, the flashing starts once the rate of decrease goes beyond a certain point? I like the idea of using the editor button to show reproduction progress, but I think it would look better if the border of the button is always shown entirely. Yeah, looking at your concepts I agree. Tooltips, tooltips everywhere! More specifically, each compound should have a tooltip explaining exactly what it's used for. Yes, this has always been a definite. What are comounds? A typo. Do away with the Thrive logo. It's a nice idea, but it takes a lot of space and isn't necessarily intuitive for everyone. Instead, divide the current menu button into two halves: the top one being the pause/resume button; and the bottom one being the menu button in the same style as the Pause/Suicide/Processes buttons. The suicide button can then be placed back next to the health bar. The logo could be integrated into the menu overlay somehow. Eh...I think the menu button still needs to be relatively large. I might be wrong though. Oh, and make the suicide button red. It is dangerous That's an option but it makes it seem more important than it is. Considering there's an ongoing debate over whether it's even needed, adding more emphasis probably isn't the way to go. It'll have a confirmation box anyway, so people aren't going to accidentally kill their cell. Thought: do we need a pause button? Pressing the menu, editor or processes (or stats) buttons pauses the game anyway. If all you want to do is pause to take a break, you could just push menu. The pause button stops the game but shows important information in the game environment, such as fossilise options or organelle health. While the menu and other options do indeed pause the game (and they'd be the ones you'd use if you wanted to take a break) the pause action in itself is a distinct function. I quite like your arrangement with the exception of the multi-tiered compounds list and broken up menu button. I hadn't considered having the top bar symmetrical about the centre. The issue is that certain buttons would be best placed in the same location in the editor, and with the new location for the editor button (replaced by the finish button in the editor) I'm not sure everything can still fit in nicely. For reference, here's my editor layout proposal: forum.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/t/microbe-gui/111/58A few more thoughts (building on my 3rd concept) and then I'm out - The ATP bar could potentially be put directly underneath the health bar, in which case IMO it should be similar in style to the health bar but smaller.
- Reproduction progress could be displayed inside the editor in distinct colours representing each respective compound, instead of the uniform blue that fills the button now.
- Alternatively, reproduction progress could be moved to the panel above the editor button, which could be expanded to a menu more like the compounds panel on the left.
- I don't know if it's possible, but it would be great if you could arrange/order the compounds with drag-and-drop.
1. I tried that but it looked too busy, a bit like the tiered compound bars in your design. Maybe I'm being pedantic though and that's what's really needed. 2. Also tried that, looked like three-flavour ice cream and clashed completely with the rest of the design. 3. Hmm, nice thought. 4. Yeah that would be good, but again I don't know whether that's possible.
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bur
Multicellular
Posts: 22
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Post by bur on Sept 29, 2016 18:08:57 GMT
Perhaps. I think that goes beyond the limit of keeping them legible, and considering NickTheNick doesn't like the smaller icons already I think it may not be the best option. I'm open to it though. Hmm you're probably right. I find it hard to make out the buttons as it is. Although it might be because your design screenshot is low resolution compared to my monitor, which is probably also where my "readable" comment comes from. I'm uncertain about piling rows of bars on top of one another - if the panel extends as more are added it makes implementing it into the game while still having it match up with the surrounding elements monstrously difficult but not impossible. I don't like the scrollbar either but I'm struggling to think of a better alternative. Well the idea was to limit it to maximum three rows, or less depending on how many compounds you tick in the full list. You could even choose to have no rows at all. So it would be a matter of hiding or showing rows. But I see how this might be a bit overwhelming to new players. Also I have no idea what's possible or how difficult anything is to implement Remind me to do this next time I make a design. It's worth trying. I will try to remember Good idea but sometimes the player may not be able to store or process compounds, so those bars would be flashing constantly for no reason. Perhaps instead of basing it on absolute value, the flashing starts once the rate of decrease goes beyond a certain point? Good point, that's probably a better way to handle it. Or maybe only have bars flash when the compound in question is critical to survival or something. Eh...I think the menu button still needs to be relatively large. I might be wrong though. It's matter of opinion of course, but I feel it's unnecessary. I don't think I have seen any games do it this way (which doesn't mean it's a bad idea by any means). That's an option but it makes it seem more important than it is. Considering there's an ongoing debate over whether it's even needed, adding more emphasis probably isn't the way to go. It'll have a confirmation box anyway, so people aren't going to accidentally kill their cell. Good point, it is overly emphasized that way. The pause button stops the game but shows important information in the game environment, such as fossilise options or organelle health. While the menu and other options do indeed pause the game (and they'd be the ones you'd use if you wanted to take a break) the pause action in itself is a distinct function. I see. I was under the impression that it was limited to the fossilise options. Could still be renamed to something else, I guess, but afterall a button is a button. I quite like your arrangement with the exception of the multi-tiered compounds list and broken up menu button. I hadn't considered having the top bar symmetrical about the centre. The issue is that certain buttons would be best placed in the same location in the editor, and with the new location for the editor button (replaced by the finish button in the editor) I'm not sure everything can still fit in nicely. For reference, here's my editor layout proposal: forum.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/t/microbe-gui/111/58Hmm, it could clash with the Save/Load/Finish buttons. Perhaps those could be placed under the Undo/Redo/Symmetry buttons? Might make that area too busy though. 1. I tried that but it looked too busy, a bit like the tiered compound bars in your design. Maybe I'm being pedantic though and that's what's really needed. 2. Also tried that, looked like three-flavour ice cream and clashed completely with the rest of the design. 3. Hmm, nice thought. 4. Yeah that would be good, but again I don't know whether that's possible. 1. I suppose it depends on how important ATP is to Health. It could be critical at times during gameplay to see how much ATP you have, or maybe not. 2. Yum :') By the way, your design really looks great. Just sharing my thoughts here, I'm sure it will turn out to be awesome either way. I will probably make another mockup to reflect your reply later, and I'll give some thought to making it fit with the Editor UI too.
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bur
Multicellular
Posts: 22
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Post by bur on Oct 1, 2016 20:27:40 GMT
This way gameplay and editor UI are mostly equivalent. In the gameplay UI the Editor button area and the menu button area could be made more symmetrical, but this image gets the idea across. The reproduction progress element could be changed/expanded depending on what exactly the player should know about it. I'm not sure how it's gonna work, so I'll leave it like this for now. Possibly replace the New Cell button with the Test button and put the New Cell button in the same area as the Save/Load/Finish buttons.
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