The_Wayward_Admiral
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The_Real_Slim_Shady
Atrox drew this awesome image of the Keldori!
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Post by The_Wayward_Admiral on Oct 18, 2015 15:32:09 GMT
So, bear with me, this might be a little rambly. I give you: The Mechanics of Limb Reattachment in Zombies.
The primary issue with severance wounds is infection. A zombie would need robust immune system mechanics in order to minimize this. A way to cause inflammation to isolate large foreign objects, dissolve, and remove them without disrupting local processes (no mean feat). Then they need super fast macrophages and neutrophils to fight on the front lines at the wound opening. Then they need specialized chemicals released when cells determine that they are detached. Perhaps there is a chemical hormone sent from a gland near the heart, that would dissipate in detached limbs and stimulate the excretion of these reattachment molecules. Once they are recognized by the remaining somatic cells (when a zombie holds the limbs back where it was), it initiates a rapid period of cell division and construction of a new extracellular matrix. This process would be energy intensive and probably a bit sloppy. The zombie would need exceptional spatial reasoning and acute eyesight to place the limb as near as zombie-ly possible to the original site, to prevent incorrect attachment and thus improper function in the future. And of course, it would be bleeding while this took place, but it would be disadvantageous to clot when you are able to reattach, so it would need massive reserves of blood, and it would easily die of burns and slashing wounds (to say nothing of blunt force trauma). all of this leads us to a massive energy deficit, which explains the brain craving because brains are primarily lipids which are super useful in aerobic respiration (although they don't lend themselves to cyclic pathways in the same way as saccharides, they have quite a bit greater energy density).
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Post by Atrox on Oct 18, 2015 15:40:27 GMT
This energy deficit could/would also cause it to move in a slow shamble?
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The_Wayward_Admiral
Spacefaring
The_Real_Slim_Shady
Atrox drew this awesome image of the Keldori!
Posts: 1,011
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Post by The_Wayward_Admiral on Oct 18, 2015 15:44:03 GMT
The heart gland would produce steroid hormones that saturate the bloodstream, and easily diffuse across bilayers. This hormone would cause the inhibition of gene sequences that order the manufacture of reattachment molecules (similarly to lac operons). Once the concentration of this hormone decreases (in a detached limb without access to the heart), the operons are freed, and reattachment molecules are produced. When the limb is held up to its place, these molecules diffuse to neighboring cells, stimulating the growth.
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The_Wayward_Admiral
Spacefaring
The_Real_Slim_Shady
Atrox drew this awesome image of the Keldori!
Posts: 1,011
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Post by The_Wayward_Admiral on Oct 18, 2015 15:44:23 GMT
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Post by Atrox on Oct 18, 2015 15:58:43 GMT
The_Wayward_Admiral, excellent excellent! Do you think a zombie would crack open skulls with its jaws or use tools? I understand that said jaws would have to be extremely powerful
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The_Wayward_Admiral
Spacefaring
The_Real_Slim_Shady
Atrox drew this awesome image of the Keldori!
Posts: 1,011
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Post by The_Wayward_Admiral on Oct 18, 2015 16:03:22 GMT
It would certainly be easier to use tools, but zombies are canonically dull, and our energy deficit model would support that. There are quite a few jaws with the kind of power in nature, so although I don't know how to do the energy consumption math exactly, I could easily imagine strong jaws to be more energy efficient than a tool using mentality.
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Post by Atrox on Oct 18, 2015 16:04:38 GMT
It costs more energy to be more intelligent?
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The_Wayward_Admiral
Spacefaring
The_Real_Slim_Shady
Atrox drew this awesome image of the Keldori!
Posts: 1,011
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Post by The_Wayward_Admiral on Oct 18, 2015 16:08:36 GMT
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Post by Rowdy on Oct 18, 2015 16:11:54 GMT
Not only does it cost more energy to be intelligent, it also tends to require a smaller brain more adapted to technical processes rather than larger and more robust functions such as evading predators, foraging, or being constantly aware of one's surroundings. So these dull zombies would have larger brains than any form of "domesticated zombie," facilitating the complex needs of the creature, but also consistent with using more energy.
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Post by Atrox on Oct 18, 2015 16:15:57 GMT
Oh wow that's pretty interesting. So this energy deficit would also cause the low intelligence depicted in most zombies then. Also drew some zombies because I was bored. The pic is kinda messy but hey, zombies aren't the tidiest things now are they? One big issue I see is that regular zombies don't feel pain. They're relentless. Now obviously in the real world, not being able to feel pain is a bad thing. So what do you think? Should these guys feel pain or not? If they should should it be dulled at least? Also The_Wayward_Admiral, some zombies are shown using tools. Not the way they should be used, granted, but I've seen zombies hold wrenches and hammers and sometimes shovels. So I dunno I'm kinda half 'n half on tools or no tools. Maybe some zombies (pack leaders) have a higher intelligence than others?
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The_Wayward_Admiral
Spacefaring
The_Real_Slim_Shady
Atrox drew this awesome image of the Keldori!
Posts: 1,011
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Post by The_Wayward_Admiral on Oct 19, 2015 2:03:03 GMT
Even the lowly dung beetle is able to use stars to navigate, so it is conceivable that a not-highly-intelligent thing could use tools in the way movie zombies do. Since they can reattach limbs, it probably wouldn't be pain when that sort of wound occurs, but more of a "I stopped receiving arm signals, I should remedy that". Maybe like numbness. As for other wounds, I suppose they should feel some pain, although I can;t really fathom how that would operate.
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Post by Atrox on Oct 19, 2015 2:59:42 GMT
Maybe it could be like adrenaline? Like after the initial pain of having your arm lopped off, adrenaline numbs the pain enough to allow the zombie to focus on escaping/killing/reattaching limbs? EDIT: Had an extremely far-fetched idea regarding limb reattachment: Let's say when a zombie loses a limb, the attachment point of that limb heals about as fast as it would if you were to reattach it. The zombie now has a stump and a severed arm. It can still reattach the arm through two methods, one is a bit more gruesome than the other: 1) The arm is now releasing chemical signals indicating it has been separated from the body and will continue to do so for a few minutes until it is brought into close proximity of its original attachment point. The signals given off by the arm will cause the cells in the stump to undergo apoptosis, creating a fresh wound for the dismembered arm to be reattached. 2) The arm is now releasing chemical signals indicating it has been separated from the body. The zombie can then bite off some of its stump, creating a fresh wound for the dismembered arm to be reattached. The zombie is now able to heal in the case that any dismembered limbs happen to be destroyed or irretrievable. Whadaya think, The_Wayward_Admiral?
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The_Wayward_Admiral
Spacefaring
The_Real_Slim_Shady
Atrox drew this awesome image of the Keldori!
Posts: 1,011
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Post by The_Wayward_Admiral on Oct 19, 2015 23:29:06 GMT
It's a great plan! For reasons I think you can imagine, I'm partial to the first system. That solves the issues we've previously discussed quite well IMO.
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Post by Atrox on Oct 19, 2015 23:42:25 GMT
Excellent! One more hurdle conquered! Is that everything for natural zombies?
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Post by mitobox on Oct 20, 2015 0:45:02 GMT
Think I'll throw in the concept of giant creepy crawlies.
For starters, arthropods (insects, arachnids, etc.) are constrained by their inability to efficiently distribute oxygen throughout their bodies. Most insects passively use trachea to allow oxygen and carbon dioxide to diffuse in and out of their bodies. Arachnids use a rather constraining respiratory organ called a Book Lung, which passively filters oxygen from the air to use. Neither have any form of oxygen-binding substance in their circulatory system. Due to this, their size depends on how much oxygen in the environment there is to compensate. The more oxygen available in an environment, the larger the arthropods will be.
The iconic example of real-world giant arthropods is those found in the Carboniferous period. Two particularly famous species that lived at that time are Arthropleura (giant millipedes) and Meganeura (giant dragonflies). Unfortunately, no "giant spiders" have been found, with the "Mesothelae" from BBC's Walking With Monsters being a fictitious filler name for Megarachne after the latter was found to be a Eurypterid.
How could we get a human-sized spider?
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The_Wayward_Admiral
Spacefaring
The_Real_Slim_Shady
Atrox drew this awesome image of the Keldori!
Posts: 1,011
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Post by The_Wayward_Admiral on Oct 20, 2015 0:50:24 GMT
I realize this might be the wrong thing to focus on, but WALKING WITH MONSTERS LIED TO ME?!?!?!?
My entire Netflix experience feels like a lie...
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Post by Atrox on Oct 20, 2015 1:24:09 GMT
Is there any real reason that that these giant spiders can't have a resporatory system similar to ours?
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Post by mitobox on Oct 20, 2015 3:04:55 GMT
Is there any real reason that that these giant spiders can't have a resporatory system similar to ours? ... Not really, no.
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Post by Atrox on Oct 20, 2015 3:22:50 GMT
So... can that not allow for giant spiders?
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Post by mitobox on Oct 20, 2015 13:38:09 GMT
So... can that not allow for giant spiders? Probably, yeah. This spider might be an ambush predator that waits for prey to get stuck in or make vibrations on its giant web, which more than likely spans a sizeable distance given the greater food needs. Spiders tend to be unable to chew, so it'd probably have an acid-laden bite that digests prey externally, in addition to helping in combat. At the same time, it could be more active, prowling in dark areas and using a thin web system to tell where prey is. Any ideas on eusocial spiders? That's a pretty popular trope.
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