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Post by Omicron on Oct 16, 2016 7:45:29 GMT
How can organic wheels be possible? This get's taken further that just turning of LAWK, this is just blatently impossible... A wheels has to be detached from the body, stopping almost all bodily functions from working there (It can't move it with muscles, it can't heal anything that has happened to it, as blood can't reach it, etc.) (it might be possible to create the wheel (just create. that's all), but even that seems hghly unlikely).
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Post by Aquos on Oct 16, 2016 8:19:44 GMT
I can't give an explanation for this, but I'm sure Atrox would be more then happy to explain it to you. Right Atrox ?
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Post by Oliveriver on Oct 16, 2016 8:54:26 GMT
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Post by Atrox on Oct 16, 2016 13:44:36 GMT
>:0 how? How? HOW?? YOU DARE QUESTION THE FEASIBILITY OF ORGANIC WHEELS??? Well Oliver has sent you a link to my thread of course, but I can also answer a few of your questions here, seeing as I am (I think) the biggest advocate for including organic wheels on this website. 1) Wheels need to be detached from the body. Correct, but they don't have to START that way. They could be attached and growing for the entire duration of the creature's developmental years, and once the wheel is finished growing, it begins a process of separation. Cells connecting the wheel to the body would begin dying until eventually the wheel can spin freely. 2) How would it heal or recieve nutrients? I didn't have an answer to this until a few months ago when I stumbled across a neat concept on DeviantArt (look at the Integration of Body Mass section). Along the sides of the wheel could be little sockets, and when the wheel is not spinning, little umbilical cords (this is the best way to describe this) attach into the sockets and provide nutrients to the wheel. 3) How would it move without muscles? There have been quite a few answers to this question. Those can be found in the thread that Oliver linked, but my favorites are the blood powered wheel and crankshaft wheel. Does this answer your conerns?
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Post by Omicron on Oct 16, 2016 14:47:00 GMT
>:0 how? How? HOW?? YOU DARE QUESTION THE FEASIBILITY OF ORGANIC WHEELS??? Well Oliver has sent you a link to my thread of course, but I can also answer a few of your questions here, seeing as I am (I think) the biggest advocate for including organic wheels on this website. 1) Wheels need to be detached from the body. Correct, but they don't have to START that way. They could be attached and growing for the entire duration of the creature's developmental years, and once the wheel is finished growing, it begins a process of separation. Cells connecting the wheel to the body would begin dying until eventually the wheel can spin freely. 2) How would it heal or recieve nutrients? I didn't have an answer to this until a few months ago when I stumbled across a neat concept on DeviantArt (look at the Integration of Body Mass section). Along the sides of the wheel could be little sockets, and when the wheel is not spinning, little umbilical cords (this is the best way to describe this) attach into the sockets and provide nutrients to the wheel. 3) How would it move without muscles? There have been quite a few answers to this question. Those can be found in the thread that Oliver linked, but my favorites are the blood powered wheel and crankshaft wheel. Does this answer your conerns? Actually, yeah it does... I probably still won't be using them, as they probably would only be usable on flat ground, and there will probably get sand and stuff stuck in the wheels/maybe even in the "umbilical cord". Also, how will it evolve? as I can't imagine any "in-between" forms...
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Post by Atrox on Oct 16, 2016 16:33:59 GMT
To answer some more concerns: 1) How to keep stuff out? Maybe some kind of fluid that flushes out the foreign bodies? Maybe the openings can close with a sphincter muscle or something! 2) How does it evolve? The only way I see an "in-between" wheel working out is if the wheels originally began as circular fins. Except these circular fins were powered by their blood flow, rather than muscle power. They would beat back in forth in time with their heart. Over time the fins become more rigid, in order to more effectively push it through the ocean. Each subsequent generation allow the fins a wider range of movement until it is finally able to freely spin in a single direction, turning them into turbines essentially. Those turbines then loose their "teeth" and smoothen out as wheeled life adapts to land. I have attempted to sketch this out in this thread. Anything else?
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Post by Omicron on Oct 16, 2016 16:40:52 GMT
To answer some more concerns: 1) How to keep stuff out? Maybe some kind of fluid that flushes out the foreign bodies? Maybe the openings can close with a sphincter muscle or something! 2) How does it evolve? The only way I see an "in-between" wheel working out is if the wheels originally began as circular fins. Except these circular fins were powered by their blood flow, rather than muscle power. They would beat back in forth in time with their heart. Over time the fins become more rigid, in order to more effectively push it through the ocean. Each subsequent generation allow the fins a wider range of movement until it is finally able to freely spin in a single direction, turning them into turbines essentially. Those turbines then loose their "teeth" and smoothen out as wheeled life adapts to land. I have attempted to sketch this out in this thread. Anything else? Yes: why? This may seem stupid, but what evolutionary advantage does it give? It only works on flat ground, has a lot of complex things that have to keep it going, and it will be hard not to fall, as wheels can't have "heels" edit: besides from being pretty epic of course...
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Post by Atrox on Oct 16, 2016 16:46:47 GMT
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Speed maybe?
EDIT: I've been defeated by logic. Hold on. Okay so maybe speed could be a benefit. And once you get the wheel rolling, it takes less energy to KEEP the wheel rolling so maybe less energy expenditure?
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Post by Omicron on Oct 16, 2016 16:57:10 GMT
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Speed maybe? EDIT: I've been defeated by logic.Hold on. Okay so maybe speed could be a benefit. And once you get the wheel rolling, it takes less energy to KEEP the wheel rolling so maybe less energy expenditure? Soooo..... Long distance runs? The ground would still probably be too uneven for long distance runs though...
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Post by Atrox on Oct 16, 2016 17:00:11 GMT
Unless maybe most of the land is smoothish due to less geological activity or something. Somewhere on the evolution forum I had also read about a plant similar to grass which creates like a flat surface where it grows. Like land lily pads.
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Post by StealthStyleL on Oct 16, 2016 17:01:43 GMT
What if they specialise in building ramps down slopes? Then they could do epic long jumps...until they crash into the ground.
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Post by GRODOG on Oct 16, 2016 18:05:10 GMT
Welp i once made a fanmade skeleton of a cyclid... but to make it work ill have to modify it a bit... it woukd need to be a bone and the bone would be actually 2 wheels instead of 1... it looks like one wheel but its separated by a line in the middle and the reason for this is so the 2 wheels will be attached to a holder holding themfrom the outer side as on the inner side will be a bit of flesh between the wheels with 2 mussles attahed to it that are attached to the wheels and when it expands and contracts it makes them move like those metal arms moving the wheels of a steam engine train... ill do a sketch of it later... And to avoid bones breaking... they would have a soft cartilage around them acting as rubber... using this same method u can not only make cyclids but also make stuff like a living car or a living train or a living boat that can propell itself... So thats how they would work... Dont worry Atrox... I will find a way for the Cyclids to work!!
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Post by tjwhale on Oct 16, 2016 19:54:54 GMT
IMO the kind of place wheeled animals would evolve would be a very windy salt lake bed. On earth there are creatures that roll and if they were light enough and it was windy enough they could use the energy of the wind to blow them around. Then they would be incentivised to have a more circular shape and appendages sticking out the side which could lift them up (so they could choose when to roll and when to stop) and also so they could have a stabilised eye which can point in the direction of travel (though the eye would rotate, the brain would have to handle that). Then you would have the possibility of the axle in the middle forming. Though this does seem relatively tenuous. I think if they skill used wind power it would be rather more likely.
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Post by GRODOG on Oct 22, 2016 1:10:24 GMT
IMO the kind of place wheeled animals would evolve would be a very windy salt lake bed. On earth there are creatures that roll and if they were light enough and it was windy enough they could use the energy of the wind to blow them around. Then they would be incentivised to have a more circular shape and appendages sticking out the side which could lift them up (so they could choose when to roll and when to stop) and also so they could have a stabilised eye which can point in the direction of travel (though the eye would rotate, the brain would have to handle that). Then you would have the possibility of the axle in the middle forming. Though this does seem relatively tenuous. I think if they skill used wind power it would be rather more likely. this makes me think of boat shaped whales on the water surface creatures then wheeled ones lol
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Post by Lanky Giraffe on Oct 31, 2016 17:37:56 GMT
Another way for an organic wheel to evolve is like an evolved version of the Helicoprion's round "buzz saw" teeth on it's lower jaw. Helicoprion did not have a fully rotating saw but it did move back and forth to an extent. Perhaps if it had continued evolved it may have been fully rotational.
As for traversing tough terrain, I'd imagine a wheeled creature would gradually evolved better "treads" for it's wheel(s). Perhaps the Cyclid's equivalent to shoes are a form of tires?
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Post by Omicron on Nov 1, 2016 16:36:01 GMT
Another way for an organic wheel to evolve is like an evolved version of the Helicoprion's round "buzz saw" teeth on it's lower jaw. Helicoprion did not have a fully rotating saw but it did move back and forth to an extent. Perhaps if it had continued evolved it may have been fully rotational. As for traversing tough terrain, I'd imagine a wheeled creature would gradually evolved better "treads" for it's wheel(s). Perhaps the Cyclid's equivalent to shoes are a form of tires? First of all, I don't know where I read it, but the helicoprion's buzzsaw was debunked... Also, a mouth evolving to a way of movement probably wouldn't happen, as they have to either first get a second mouth, which would just be a waste of energy, or they would have to live without mouth...
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Post by Atrox on Nov 1, 2016 17:08:38 GMT
Yeah the saw-jaw shark didn't move. It's mouth was just weird.
And I agree with the mouth ---> wheel is impractical.
Honestly I kind of think wheels in general are impractical now.
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Post by Aquos on Nov 1, 2016 17:10:25 GMT
Yeah the saw-jaw shark didn't move. It's mouth was just weird. And I agree with the mouth ---> wheel is impractical. Honestly I kind of think wheels in general are impractical now. But you still whant them in the game ? (I'm just wondering)
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Post by Atrox on Nov 1, 2016 17:58:37 GMT
Eh
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Post by serialkiller🌴 on Nov 1, 2016 18:21:00 GMT
Another way for an organic wheel to evolve is like an evolved version of the Helicoprion's round "buzz saw" teeth on it's lower jaw. Helicoprion did not have a fully rotating saw but it did move back and forth to an extent. Perhaps if it had continued evolved it may have been fully rotational. As for traversing tough terrain, I'd imagine a wheeled creature would gradually evolved better "treads" for it's wheel(s). Perhaps the Cyclid's equivalent to shoes are a form of tires? First of all, I don't know where I read it, but the helicoprion's buzzsaw was debunked... Also, a mouth evolving to a way of movement probably wouldn't happen, as they have to either first get a second mouth, which would just be a waste of energy, or they would have to live without mouth... If I remember right shark scales and our teeth have evolved from the same organ so I don't think that an organ that evolves in two completely different directions - like mouth and weel - wouldn't be unrealistic at all .
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